how long does thaumaturgy take

[potestas]

if I don't have to do anything special and my lore is high enough how long will a ritual take. Will it be as fast as evocation or is there still time involved. I found something called superior world walking so I am assuming that someone somewhere wanted a more instant way of travel.

[Taran]

A minute?  Translation: several exchanges.

1 or 2 exchanges to set up the circle (depending on what it entails);
1 exchange to call up the power;
1 exchange/control roll.

So, you could do it in combat but it's be extremely inconvenient and probably very easy to interrupt.

That's how I'd do it.

[potestas]

A minute?  Translation: several exchanges.

1 or 2 exchanges to set up the circle (depending on what it entails);
1 exchange to call up the power;
1 exchange/control roll.

So, you could do it in combat but it's be extremely inconvenient and probably very easy to interrupt.

That's how I'd do it.

so in a non combat situation your watching some guy drawing a circle saying something and a minute later a tear in the fabric of space

[Taran]

yup. 

Although, for Thaumaturgy, you always need a link.  I'm not sure how that works for world-walking.  I forget how Harry did it in the books.  I remember that it didn't take him very long, but I know he had to go find specific locations, which he could sense.  I don't remember if he used anything or had anything as a link to the location or the portal itself.  Maybe the places themselves were the links.

In any case, if I remember correctly, I think opening a portal is a difficulty 4 or 5.  It's in the Thaum section under worldwalking...I think.

Edit: YS pg 283-284

Typically, the strength of the barrier between
the Nevernever and our world is Superb (or
better)

So, if you want to do it automatically, your Lore needs to be Superb unless the barrier is softer in a particular area. and further down pg. 283 there's rules for holding the Way open for longer.

[Haru]

The really time consuming part of thaumaturgy is the preparation phase, not the casting phase. Taran has it spot on.

The transitions to the nevernever as they happen in the novels aren't necessarily rituals in a mechanical sense. For the most part, I would assume any wizard will have the expertise to open the way. Unless they are pressed for time, of course, thats when I would make them roll.

[Blk4ce]

However, there are examples in the book that take only a standart action, especially if they don't need preparation.

[Taran]

Really?  What page?

[Blk4ce]

P. 264 in the determining complexity chapter. If I understood correctly, spells that otherwise would require a simple action, manuevers and contests that do not require preparation (do not exceed Lore) need a standart action.

[Haru]

Thaumaturgy always requires preparation. That's what makes it thaumaturgy. Granted, that preparation can be minimal, but it is there. It requires you to get a symbolic link, and you need some sort of construct to build the spell on. The last one is usually a circle, since that's the easiest and probably most adaptable form for most spells.

[Blk4ce]

But in the how you do it section, it says you can skip preparation if the complexity does not surpass your Lore.

[Haru]

That's the part of the preparation where you gather up aspects to get enough shifts to cover the complexity of the spell.

It's a bit like a gps navigation system. If you want to find your way around in your state, that's not going to be a problem, that's what it's there for by default. If you want to go further, you are going to need to get the right maps, load them onto the device, etc. In either case though, you are going to have to program the address, or you won't get anywhere.

The same, I think, applies to thaumaturgic rituals. Easy rituals don't require much prep, but you still need to spend some time on it. You need the symbolic link (the address), and you have to draw up a circle to be able to power the spell (programming the address into eh device).

Thaumaturgy is not really meant to be cast in a conflict situation, unless all the preparation steps have been done (like the ward example). If you are able to get the symbolic link from a target (like pulling out some hair), that conflict should probably be over, and you can cast your spell in private. Or you can use the link directly in an evocation directed at the target, that would probably be the better option in that moment.

[Taran]

O.k here's the difference between needing preparation and not:

pg. 164

if the
spell’s complexity is equal to or less than your
Lore (after it’s adjusted by focus items—see
page 278). This indicates that your wizard’s
personal collection of knowledge and accoutrements
suffices for the spell.

pg. 165 Preparation

Preparation time is normally
divided into three broad categories: researching
the ritual, obtaining stronger symbolic links,
or acquiring additional power sources

So if the complexity is lower than your lore, you have the knowledge (no need to research); the symbolic links(no need to acquire one); and enough personal power to fuel the spell.

Casting:

Once preparation is complete, the wizard can
actually cast the spell. The circle or casting space
is set up, the links and other ritual elements are
arranged like they’re supposed to be, and the
wizard’s other power sources are available. All
that’s left is for the wizard to complete the ritual
steps, contribute his own power to the spell, and
send the energies on their way.

Actually casting the spell requires setting up the space.  I'd say that takes an action, at least.  Even Harry's tracking spell took a bit of time.

I think the part about simple actions is more about target difficulty than how long an action takes.  It's just saying "to do a simple action like an assessment, the complexity will be equal to the target difficulty.

[Blk4ce]

But it says skip. It says there is no part of preparation.

And a different question, if you have the target in front of you, do you still need a link? Because the book assumes you do a ritual from far away. But if he is in front of you, you could treat the spell as a gun: point and pull the trigger (wait, the visual contact is the link, isn't it?)

I think Harry has used quick and dirty ritual spells in the books, I don't have handy examples though. Obviously they would be watered down versions of what they would be originaly.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Taran. I think though that the preparation of space is a bit subjective. When is a circle needed and when do you already have the needed space from the enviroment? Oh, and just drawing a cicle with chalk (or even better having a printed one with you) could count as a supplemental action?

EDIT2: Wait, wait. If I understood correctly it says that setting the space is part of the preparation. Therefore it's not needed.

[Haru]

If there was literally no preparation, thaumaturgy spells like that could be cast like evocations, except that they don't cost mental stress to cast. Which would vastly devalue evocation in the process. And sponsored magic as well, since evothaum is a big part of what they bring to the table. If evothaum is possible regardless, those points might be better spend elsewhere. Those 2 points of refresh buys you a +4 thaum complexity focus, which will allow you to tackle quite a lot of ad hoc rituals.

Mind you, I don't have a problem with combat thaumaturgy, but I think that the "time vs. safety" thing should come into play and be tangible. You can spend fate points to declare a circle pattern in the floor of the mega mall to use as a circle, and do your spell quicker, but I think you'd at least have to acknowledge the difference between evocation and thaumaturgy.

[Braincandy]

Being able to quickly cast simple thaumaturgy won't devalue Evocation at all. The strength of Thaumaturgy is the fact that you CAN do the preparation to hit really high complexity levels that Evocation can't touch. Unless you are using Sponsored Magic, you will need to have a high lore, Conviction AND Discipline to make a really impressive Thaumaturgic effect quickly, where Evocation just needs Conviction and Discipline.