how does sponsered magic work

[Cadd]

With commensurate cost?

No costs stated, unless you mean the fact that Soulfire is a -5 instead of a -4 Refresh Sponsored Magic.
The usual narrative justifications apply, of course, it's just not limited to a single area of Thaumaturgy.

Personally, I'm not entirely comfortable with how Sponsored Magic works by RAW vs how they are depicted in the novels, but I can't put my finger on it and really need to think it through what it is exactly I don't like.

[Taran]

I usually use themes of protection, healing, freedom and purifying for soulfire.

[Cadd]

Add any kind of creating (based on what Harry says in Changes when creating his decoys) and it seems fair, which really is a lot broader than other sponsored magic gives.

[Quantus]

So Soulfire doesnt have any added cost over say Hellfire to represent the Soul Fuel it consumes?  I havent looked closely at the sponsored stuff in a very long time.  I would have assumed it would have some sort of energy/health/life drain effect in addition to whatever was normal for sponsored magics

[Cadd]

Nope, I'd probably cover that with compels. It's not like there's any clear other "agenda" that comes with Soulfire, so the sponsor debt might as well be described along those lines.

[potestas]

All sponsored magic can do one area of thaumaturgy with evocations speed; soulfire can do any thaumaturgy at evocation speed.

I just don't see where in the rules it says that??

[Magicpockets]

So Soulfire doesnt have any added cost over say Hellfire to represent the Soul Fuel it consumes?  I havent looked closely at the sponsored stuff in a very long time.  I would have assumed it would have some sort of energy/health/life drain effect in addition to whatever was normal for sponsored magics

Soulfire was written before the novels revealed further details about it. As such, it is outdated.

[Braincandy]

Soulfire was written before the novels revealed further details about it. As such, it is outdated.

I didn't realize how old the RPG book was until I just went and double checked it. It was written right after Small Favor, but the only thing that they really discussed in the book was the cost to the soul of using it so I am still surprised that that part isn't in the RPG.

[Cadd]

I just don't see where in the rules it says that??

A combination of these:

and in thaumaturgic application…well,
we don’t know really, so for our current purposes
consider it to provide the full range of thaumaturgy
spells (those which are agenda-compatible,
at any rate).

and

Sometimes the power
source is instead more potent (or at least faster)
when directed against certain types of problems,
such as Summer’s ability to do more potent
healing effects (the sponsor takes care of all that
pesky biological know-how) and the ability to
do certain things with the effects of thaumaturgy,
but at the speed of evocation.

The latter quote I take to mean that what Thaumaturgy a Sponsored Magic allows to improve it can also perform as EvoThaum (Given that for instance Seelie and Unseelie Magic doesn't even talk about Thaumaturgy other than what areas it allows to perform as EvoThaum).
This combined with the first quote at least gives me the idea that by RAW Soulfire allows any Thaumaturgy to be attempted with Evocation's speed and methods.

[Taran]

No matter what type of evo-thaum you are doing, it has to be agenda-compatible regardless of the sponsor.

I can see situations where all types of sponsored magic could do wards(for example) at the speed of evocation.

[vultur]

Soulfire writeup doesn't mention "with the methods and speed of evocation" at all, though. It just allows all thaumaturgy to be done with the Sponsored Magic. Which... makes it really not worth -3 for somebody who's already got Evo and Thaum.

I think the using up soul thing is a combination of Compels on Sponsor Debt and taking consequences to power a big spell with it. I don't think it really NEEDS any special mechanics... especially since Harry does cast soulfire spells without noticing anything, so it shouldn't be some extra penalty every time you cast a spell with soulfire.

[vultur]

Potential soulfire rewrite to take into account what we've learned since:

SOULFIRE [-4]
Description: You have access to the fires of creation, the same power used by angels.
Sponsor: Heaven, usually via one of the Archangels
Agenda: Exact details are unclear, but seems to be related to creation, the promotion of mortal free will, and perhaps opposing dark and evil forces. May also be connected to faith.
Evocation: Soulfire evocations tend to produce intense, blue-white light. If used as an element, it acts as fire, with a special focus on fire's purifying aspects.
Thaumaturgy: Soulfire thaumaturgy can produce effects related to creation – conjuration, illusions, wards. It can also banish hostile or dark magic.
Evothaum: Soulfire can produce creation-related effects (conjuration, illusions, wards) with the speed of evocation.
Extra Benefits: Soulfire is especially potent when used to create. Conjurations and illusions created with soulfire (including evothaum) gain a +1 complexity and control bonus.


I think that covers everything we've seen Harry use it for, with the possible exception of (CD spoiler)

(click to show/hide)

breaking the will-block of Mother Winter, and even that falls under "banish hostile or dark magic", it's just way more powerful than Harry should be able to do.

But I think that's an effect of Starborn + Soulfire synergy, likely plus stuff he learned from being dead, not a base effect of the Soulfire power alone.

[Braincandy]

Soulfire writeup doesn't mention "with the methods and speed of evocation" at all, though. It just allows all thaumaturgy to be done with the Sponsored Magic. Which... makes it really not worth -3 for somebody who's already got Evo and Thaum.

I think the using up soul thing is a combination of Compels on Sponsor Debt and taking consequences to power a big spell with it. I don't think it really NEEDS any special mechanics... especially since Harry does cast soulfire spells without noticing anything, so it shouldn't be some extra penalty every time you cast a spell with soulfire.

He sure as hell noticed something the first time he used soulfire, his hand went numb for days. I think it is possible that since he did not know he had soulfire, that first time he did the magical equivalent of "emptying the clip" so to speak. He used far more than was needed for the effect, hence the lasting harm from one spell.

[Taran]

He sure as hell noticed something the first time he used soulfire, his hand went numb for days. I think it is possible that since he did not know he had soulfire, that first time he did the magical equivalent of "emptying the clip" so to speak. He used far more than was needed for the effect, hence the lasting harm from one spell.

That can be modeled by taking consequences from backlash.

[Cadd]

Potential soulfire rewrite to take into account what we've learned since:

SOULFIRE [-4]
Description: You have access to the fires of creation, the same power used by angels.
Sponsor: Heaven, usually via one of the Archangels
Agenda: Exact details are unclear, but seems to be related to creation, the promotion of mortal free will, and perhaps opposing dark and evil forces. May also be connected to faith.
Evocation: Soulfire evocations tend to produce intense, blue-white light. If used as an element, it acts as fire, with a special focus on fire's purifying aspects.
Thaumaturgy: Soulfire thaumaturgy can produce effects related to creation – conjuration, illusions, wards. It can also banish hostile or dark magic.
Evothaum: Soulfire can produce creation-related effects (conjuration, illusions, wards) with the speed of evocation.
Extra Benefits: Soulfire is especially potent when used to create. Conjurations and illusions created with soulfire (including evothaum) gain a +1 complexity and control bonus.

If Soulfire becomes relevant in my game (it might), and I haven't sat down and done a bigger rework of Sponsored Magic as a whole, I think I'm gonna use that rewrite right there (with the possible addition of satisfying at least some "Holy" catches). It feels a lot closer to what we've seen in the books after Small Favor.