When to Invoke for Effect and when to Tag for a Bonus

[Taran]

One of the common snags for new players in DFRPG, I find, is invoking for effect.

I'd like to invite anyone to give any advice on the subject:

-When to use an Invoke for effect vs when to Just tag for the +2
-Examples of invoking for effect that you've used or come across.
-Any Limits for Invoking for Effect
-Any advice or wisdom, in general, that you may have.

[Sammael]

I am abit new to GM:ing but here´s how I´ve solved it for now:

If someone wants a specific game effect like disarmed, or Rooted to the spot, they make a manouver and invoke for effect.
This means the Disarmed cannot use Guns for X amount of turns (until the maneuver breaks or I deem in plausible). The guy who is Rooted To The Spot can´t change zones for the duration of the spell/maneuver.

I think this can make some tactical gameplay, with "status effects" kind of modifiers for my players. In this way we can launch people of skyscrapers with suitable Difficulty (number to beat) and a tag.
Can also be used to Paralyze, put to sleep and Confuse people. . .

Dresden used Flamethrower!
It was super Effective!

[UmbraLux]

-When to use an Invoke for effect vs when to Just tag for the +2

This is easy if you invert the question - use an invoke when you want to add to a die roll; use an invoke for effect (aka compel*) any other time.

-Examples of invoking for effect that you've used or come across.

Any change, narrative manipulation, or (quasi) forced temptation / complication to environment, characters (PC or NPC), scene, or game is potentially a compel / invoke for effect.  Specifics are negotiable.  Negotiating instead of simply saying yes/no is forgotten too often.   

Examples include compelling a character with "Boisterous" in an aspect to be loud at inappropriate times; compelling a character with "Curious" in an aspect to be nosier than etiquette demands; using a "Dark Room" aspect to ensure actions are concealed (at least from those affected); and using a "Bureaucratic Nightmare" aspect to ensure legal paperwork is misfiled.  Examples are only limited by imagination and by what makes sense in context to fellow players.

-Any Limits for Invoking for Effect

Group consensus is the real limit, they should make sense in context. 

-Any advice or wisdom, in general, that you may have.

Use them!   

*Fate Core drops the bombastic jargon of 'invoke for effect' and the complication of having two terms for the same action dependent on who initiates it.  Compels are 'invokes for effect' and 'invokes for effect' are compels.

[Sanctaphrax]

*Fate Core drops the bombastic jargon of 'invoke for effect' and the complication of having two terms for the same action dependent on who initiates it.  Compels are 'invokes for effect' and 'invokes for effect' are compels.

I don't think it's just a terminology change, though. Compels can be refused, Invokes for effect can't.

[Taran]

I don't think it's just a terminology change, though. Compels can be refused, Invokes for effect can't.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.  You can spend a FP to refuse the compel that is generated by the invoke.

Here's the advice I've given:

Invoke for effect:  (similar to what  Sammael said)
For effect is good for when you want to do things with cool effects (like having the guy with the super-powerful sword drop his weapon at a very inconvenient time.  It only works, though, if the guy accepts the compel.  He can pay a FP (if he has one) so as not to drop his weapon.

A trick I've seen is invoking for effect on an enemy that has recovery.  If you inflict a mild consequence on them - and they're likely to heal it before an ally can tag it for a bonus, I'd invoke for effect to maybe have them fly back into another zone(like out the giant glass pane window because it happens in the movies all the time).  Best case scenario (if the GM is generous) they have to spend a sprint action moving back or worse case they spend a supplemental (if they don't have a speed power) to move back into your zone.

Tagging for a bonus is especially useful for tough(or regenerating), fast opponents.  If you find someone overly tough or hard to hit, generally, you want to stack up as many bonuses as you can for one big hit that will really hurt.

Lots of small hits miss or just will whittle an enemy down and take a long time, while one big hit is more likely to take someone out.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.  You can spend a FP to refuse the compel that is generated by the invoke.

If a Compel is generated by the invoke, sure.

But not all invokes for effect create Compels.

[Haru]

That sounds pretty solid.

In addition, I would say that "invoke for effect" can introduce a game changer to the scene and focus the game on the aspect in question.

The infamous "on fire" is a perfect example for that. Two groups are fighting in an enclosed space, when suddenly someone sets the scene "on fire". If you don't invoke for effect, the fire is still there, but it is not going to be the focus of the scene. A few flames in the background, no big deal. Instead, invoking the "on fire" aspect will turn the scene around and make the characters head for the exit, while trying to hinder their opponents to do the same.

[UmbraLux]

I don't think it's just a terminology change, though. Compels can be refused, Invokes for effect can't.

When the resulting narrative change targets an individual they certain may refuse (and pay up).  Here's the old and convoluted DFRPG method.  Or you can do what Fate Core does and simply call it a compel. 

See Fate Core p71:  "In other Fate games, you might have seen player-driven compels referred to as “invoking for effect.” We thought it was clearer to just call it a compel, no matter who initiates it."
---
@Taran:  There are some good examples in Fate Core - it's worth reading. 

[Sammael]

Mine has always been a Tag is just a free Compel without a fate point, so anyone can pay a FP to reject it.

[Sanctaphrax]

When the resulting narrative change targets an individual they certain may refuse (and pay up).  Here's the old and convoluted DFRPG method.  Or you can do what Fate Core does and simply call it a compel. 

See Fate Core p71:  "In other Fate games, you might have seen player-driven compels referred to as “invoking for effect.” We thought it was clearer to just call it a compel, no matter who initiates it."

I don't think the Fate Core method is any less convoluted, personally.

On one side you have "invoke an Aspect, make a thing happen, this may cause a Compel" and on the other side you have "aspect invocations can be used on Compels, which don't necessarily have to be against anybody in particular when created this way".

Really, it's pretty dead simple in both books. And the mechanical differences between the two aren't huge.

That being said, Fate Core is a lot more concisely written than DFRPG. Often clearer, too.