Author Topic: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]  (Read 38716 times)

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2013, 05:52:34 PM »
I don't know that you can say that what Kumori did was necessarily keeping the soul bound to his dying body.  It seems to me that what she did was use her necromancy to stop the body from dying in the first place, so that the soul never left. 

That gets into how you define dying; am I misremembering how the paramedic guy describes it ?
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2013, 06:10:31 PM »
Dude, that quote fits into this whole paradigm for me like a foot in a shoe. 

I'm not sure I read it as intended as a reliable statement of a moral absolute in the DV, though.

I mean, it is coming from Harry, and Harry has strong issues with pretty much all forms of authority, and actively rejects any suggestion of being involved in anything that could be described as political - to the extent that it surprises him in DB when it's pointed out how he's seen by other Council members (during the scene of Luccio trying to convince him to become a Warden) and it surprises him when other Wardens are nervous of him in TC.  Harry's perpetually willing to use his power for (what seem to him to be) good ends, and perpetually reluctant to actually examine how and when he does so; I don't think Jim means that to be an unquestioned good - from the loa asking him to think about why he does what he does in DM, to the more reflective scenes he has in GS, and instances like realising how taller entities looming over you feels in CD, I am inclined to hope that Harry actually thinking through when and where he is or should be willing to use his power is a direction the
series is going.

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Actually the 7 laws kinda do indicate that the mechanism matters.

To an extent.  They have some degree of overlap, not by WoJ exact, with uses of wizard-magic that
cause corruption.  I'm not seeing that corruption as being treated in the books as definitive of evil, though; Harry's no less upset about Kim Delaney being killed in non-Lawbreaking ways than about any of the victims of the heartripper spell in SF.

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And Harry's "ye shall know them by their fruits" paraphrase helps reinforce that they have the right idea. 

Maybe i am misremembering, but I thought that was specifically about results and motives.  Not about the point I am trying to get at here, which is means.

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Of course my whole point is that it isn't the laws themselves that make it black, but rather that it's black so they made a law against it,

Against which we have, iirc, Luccio in TC on the Laws and the Council being for keeping wizards from being drawn into mortal-world political conflicts and to restrain their power; to my mind that creates reasonable doubt about the a priori inherent evilness of any use of power they forbid.

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It might not be inherently evil, however it is profoundly reality warping.  People die, their souls leave their body, the world continues turning... Except when some necromancer comes along and says, newp I don't want it to happen that way, and I'm going to rewrite reality so that this soul is forced to stay within this dead body and have it get revived. 

I'm not seeing how that is qualitatively distinct from the ways in which all DV magic is to some extent rewriting reality in accordance with the caster's will.

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Perhaps this isn't a bad thing, but it certainly is HUGE, and probably puts significant stress on the necromancer's humanity because they are playing "god" with mortal souls on a level that is disturbing and maybe even dangerous. 

More so than, say, any doctor making any difficult medical decision that affects how long someone can stay alive, or prevent them from dying when they otherwise would ?

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Which is kinda Harry's point when he rejected her arguments.

Oh, I entirely agree it's Harry's point, I just think the text intends us to question that point.
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2013, 06:12:57 PM »
That gets into how you define dying; am I misremembering how the paramedic guy describes it ?
The quote that sticks out in my mind is that "He wasn't allowed to die." which can mean either physically or spiritually, to me.

Offline Serack

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2013, 06:42:38 PM »
I'm not seeing how that is qualitatively distinct from the ways in which all DV magic is to some extent rewriting reality in accordance with the caster's will.

Then apparently you completely missed the concluding section of the OP of this topic.  "Vs a Mortal Matters"

And I also feel that my OP already sufficently addresses:

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More so than, say, any doctor making any difficult medical decision that affects how long someone can stay alive, or prevent them from dying when they otherwise would?

But I'll reiterate:  Doing it with magic is using your mind and will to reshape reality.  Reality pushes back, and reshapes your mind in turn.  When your magic F's with a mortal soul, the pushback is all the more relevant to your own soul/will/mind. 

Mundane efforts to do similar things might have their own consequences, but even Dr. House was already a megalomaniac before he decided he could play god in the operating room, and since magic wasn't involved, the consequences to his soul were also mundane.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2013, 07:24:17 PM »
Then apparently you completely missed the concluding section of the OP of this topic.  "Vs a Mortal Matters"
But I'll reiterate:  Doing it with magic is using your mind and will to reshape reality.  Reality pushes back, and reshapes your mind in turn.  When your magic F's with a mortal soul, the pushback is all the more relevant to your own soul/will/mind. 

I may be missing your point, but I am not sure I am seeing your point there as connecting on to the question I am raising.

I am accepting that there is a difference in the DV at the practical-magical level between killing a person with wizard-magic and killing them with a sword or a gun, in that one corrupts the soul in objectively measurable ways and the other does not.

I am not seeing that the text of the DF intends us to regard this as exactly equivalent to the moral distinction (if any) between killing a person with wizard-magic and killing them with a sword or gun, in terms of which is more evil an act. 

I am also not seeing that the text of the DF establishes that use of the distinct, and consistently described as different, force that is necromancy/Black Court vampire magic, behaves the same way as misused wizard-magic in the matter of corruption of the caster.  I am not by any means arguing that using a death-aspected force to kill is any less evil than misusing a life-aspected force to kill on a moral level, but the text seems compatible with a reading that using a death-aspected force to raise a tyrannosaur, or prevent a mortally injured gangster from dying, does not necessarily generate the same corruptive effects as using a life-aspected force against its nature by killing with it.

And I am making the argument that, given the premise that the Laws were specifically set up to limit the power of wizards, any law that specifically says "Do not use this form of power" cannot be safely automatically assumed to have the justification "Because it is corrupting" or "Because using it is a crime against human free will", rather than simply "Because wizards should not have too much power".
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 07:26:31 PM by the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh »
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Offline Serack

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2013, 09:02:50 PM »
I may be missing your point, but I am not sure I am seeing your point there as connecting on to the question I am raising.

I am accepting that there is a difference in the DV at the practical-magical level between killing a person with wizard-magic and killing them with a sword or a gun, in that one corrupts the soul in objectively measurable ways and the other does not.

I am not seeing that the text of the DF intends us to regard this as exactly equivalent to the moral distinction (if any) between killing a person with wizard-magic and killing them with a sword or gun, in terms of which is more evil an act.  (A)

I am also not seeing that the text of the DF establishes that use of the distinct, and consistently described as different, force that is necromancy/Black Court vampire magic, behaves the same way as misused wizard-magic in the matter of corruption of the caster.  I am not by any means arguing that using a death-aspected force to kill is any less evil than misusing a life-aspected force to kill on a moral level(A), but the text seems compatible with a reading that using a death-aspected force to raise a tyrannosaur, or prevent a mortally injured gangster from dying, does not necessarily generate the same corruptive effects as using a life-aspected force against its nature by killing with it.(B)

And I am making the argument that, given the premise that the Laws were specifically set up to limit the power of wizards, any law that specifically says "Do not use this form of power" cannot be safely automatically assumed to have the justification "Because it is corrupting" or "Because using it is a crime against human free will", rather than simply "Because wizards should not have too much power".

Apparently you have been making distinctions that I hadn't, or hadn't delineated to that level.

Perhaps the universal aspects of "Black Magic" are distinguished by moral issues like the ones you emphasize in your comments (noted by me as (A)).  I prefer to examine it in the terms* I have already gone through such care to outline though.  (*those terms being corruptive and mind warping rather than evil and not moral)  I believe approaching it in terms of evil and morality will just result in spinning my wheels and getting embedded in the morass up to my axel so I won't bother trying, whereas approaching it in the terms I have, actually has accomplished something.  The morals are likely to fall into place along those lines anyways.  Or not.

As to the distinction you make in (B) necromancy certainly seems to be a distinct subset of the "Thalt not X vs a mortal" parts of the 7 Laws.  I do think that the set of tools I have crafted in this topic to analyze the effects of Black Magic manage to handle the differences nicely though, and I have already commented how the text Count was so good to quote for us seems to support that approach nicely.

Of course you already established that you dismiss that quote's pertinence.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 09:37:38 PM by Serack »
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2013, 04:34:27 AM »
Where are we getting the whole "it's rewriting reality" thing from for magic?  Seems to me that magic is about 90% just moving and affecting assorted forces.  Not any different from using a shovel to move some dirt with your hands, other than the mechanism of doing so.  But when you move the dirt, you're moving the dirt, not just causing an alteration in the fabric of reality in which that dirt was always in the other place.

Offline King Ash

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2013, 02:09:59 AM »
Probably because Jim has said that the highest level beings can't be considered mad because they are able to rewrite reality to match their own perceptions. Based on the idea that upper level magical is just a logical progression from lower level magic, all magic rewrites reality in some way. That's the closest thing that I can think of.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2013, 02:47:47 AM »
There's a bunch of stuff but I'm far too lazy to go into all of it. DV magic is a murky as heck topic.

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Offline cass

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2013, 03:34:17 AM »
Where are we getting the whole "it's rewriting reality" thing from for magic?  Seems to me that magic is about 90% just moving and affecting assorted forces.  Not any different from using a shovel to move some dirt with your hands, other than the mechanism of doing so.  But when you move the dirt, you're moving the dirt, not just causing an alteration in the fabric of reality in which that dirt was always in the other place.

IIRC, there was also at one point a WoJ that the level of belief in magic for a wizard is such that they'd be flabbergasted if they attempted a familiar spell and it didn't work  (in the same way that vanilla mortals would be shocked if they dropped an object and it didn't fall).  That the reason magic works for them is that this is how they believe the world should work on a fundamental level. 

Which might help explain why killing with magic is bad: the wizard believes on a very deep level that that whatever/whoever they're killing isn't supposed to be alive. 

Offline peregrine

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2013, 04:38:24 AM »
Yeah, but if a wizard were to try to move something with telekinesis, for example, be it force or wind, or whatever, and that thing is actually securely anchored to the ground, it's not going to just up and move because they think it should.  It's one thing for their magic to fail, it's another for their magic to not give the effect they want.

Offline Tami Seven

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2013, 04:54:12 AM »
IIRC, there was also at one point a WoJ that the level of belief in magic for a wizard is such that they'd be flabbergasted if they attempted a familiar spell and it didn't work  (in the same way that vanilla mortals would be shocked if they dropped an object and it didn't fall).  That the reason magic works for them is that this is how they believe the world should work on a fundamental level. 

Which might help explain why killing with magic is bad: the wizard believes on a very deep level that that whatever/whoever they're killing isn't supposed to be alive.
Yeah, but if a wizard were to try to move something with telekinesis, for example, be it force or wind, or whatever, and that thing is actually securely anchored to the ground, it's not going to just up and move because they think it should.  It's one thing for their magic to fail, it's another for their magic to not give the effect they want.

JB/Harry has said that the magic must obey the laws of physics. Belief is important to make magic work, but even when it does it can't change the fundamental laws of nature. At least on Harry's level of ability.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2013, 05:38:04 AM »
JB/Harry has said that the magic must obey the laws of physics. Belief is important to make magic work, but even when it does it can't change the fundamental laws of nature. At least on Harry's level of ability.

By WoJ there are no upper limits to what magic can accomplish. With enough power you can literally do anything.

So it seems the more power you have, the less you have to obey the current laws of reality.
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Offline Mortax

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2013, 12:24:15 PM »
True, but it is also bound by what appears to be a restriction of actions with higher power levels.
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Offline hassman

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Re: Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2013, 08:54:50 PM »
By WoJ there are no upper limits to what magic can accomplish. With enough power you can literally do anything.

So it seems the more power you have, the less you have to obey the current laws of reality.

Magic once invoked has to deal with physics.  Fire is hot etc.  Magic causes a change in reality, but after that reality uses its normal rules. 
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