Harry's murders of Non-humans! (Cold Days spoilers)

[KurtinStGeorge]

There is no 'correct.'  You are allowed your opinion, I am allowed mine.

Not if the moral relativism used to examine your competing opinions is only Descriptive Moral Relativism; meaning, you and your debating opponent hold different positions of what is right (ethical) and what is wrong (unethical) behavior, but while you are allowed to form your own opinion in this matter, one of you could still be right and the other in error, in a universal sense of morality.

The problem I have with the Meta - something (I don't feel like looking for an old philosophy textbook to find the exact term right now.) Moral Relativism, is that it eliminates the need to ever question or reexamine one's beliefs, leading to a limited possibility of growth or greater understanding for either the individual or the society clinging to its own set of rules and beliefs for the sole reason that they are their beliefs, not because they are better, or more effective, or true in a universal sense.     

Now that I got that off my chest, I wonder if the Winter Knights mantle loosened up Harry's inhibitions to kill something that was not presenting an immediate threat to his life, made it a little easier to shoot first and ask questions later. 

Even if that is not the case, I don't think Harry actions were as cold blooded or evil as the OP suggested.  Harry had just survived what should have been a fight to the death, and a young women whom he liked; even if he didn't know much about her, had just had her life threatened by one of the Sidhe who had a buddy who was more than willing to do the job.  Also, we have never seen any of the Winter Court show more than cursory respect for mortal life, and Harry was standing at the seat of their power, so why shouldn't he have reacted with extreme prejudice to a provocation, even a verbal one?  Anything less would likely have likely led to worse situation for him.         

[Seraphiel]

I really don't see the problem it was not human, it was something that preys on humans and that publicly challenged Harry's new status as Mab's knight. In Arctis Tor and all of Winter for that matter letting it live would have been a colossal show of weakness. Harry is not Michael he does not ooze compassion and love. Don't expect him to bow down to non human bullies, which is basically what that Sidhe lord was. Was it murder? Sure. Was it justified in universe and the "best choice" ? Hell yeah.

So while we may or may not agree I'm pretty sure even the Harry we will see at the end of the series would have done the same, no matter what kind of epiphany he has along the way.

[Karthak]

Given that we have an authorial voice statement (outside any possible unreliable narrative / bias that Harry may introduce) that some/all intelligent NN beings "aren't actual people" - no, I don't think we can really classify killing such a being, within the context of the Dresdenverse, as murder (even morally rather than legally).

That (the fact that there can be intelligent beings which are soulless and from a moral perspective "not people") is reality (EDIT: within the fictional context of) the Dresdenverse, even if it doesn't hold true in the real world.

Oh, didn't know that...

Honestly, I find that slightly repulsive. As far as I'm concerned every sapient being is a person, with all the rights of personhood. And if the metaphysical laws of the Dresdenverse say otherwise, I'd kick them in the nads until they changed their minds (I think Jim mentioned somewhere that theoretically, magic has no upper power limit).

[Seidmadr]

I, honestly think Harry did the right thing. The sidhe are not free-willed, per se. They will follow their nature. And as high sidhe of Winter they will prey upon mortals. Harry had to give a huge enough incentive not to do it, that their self-preservation changed what their nature saw as things to be preyed upon, at least in the presence of Harry.
He also had to kill to prove that he meant what he said, otherwise he wouldn't be taken seriously, especially not after having been outmaneuvered socially to the degree that he got just a few minutes prior.

[Mira]

I, honestly think Harry did the right thing. The sidhe are not free-willed, per se. They will follow their nature. And as high sidhe of Winter they will prey upon mortals. Harry had to give a huge enough incentive not to do it, that their self-preservation changed what their nature saw as things to be preyed upon, at least in the presence of Harry.
He also had to kill to prove that he meant what he said, otherwise he wouldn't be taken seriously, especially not after having been outmaneuvered socially to the degree that he got just a few minutes prior.

   I agree with this, clearly he was being tested.

[wyltok]

I'll just leave this here to see who clicks on it and ends up stuck in TVTropes the rest of the day:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatMeasureIsANonHuman

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

We  get hung up of the welfare of the many outweigh the welfare of the few or the one, but that isn't what we practice.

You do not speak for me in that "we".  I'd appreciate you not using language that sounded like you did.

[Mira]

You do not speak for me in that "we".  I'd appreciate you not using language that sounded like you did.

  Never do, since we do not think alike..

[A naughty mouse]

Killing a non-human for backtalk against his rule against harming humans when he's around to do something about it seems pretty righteous to me.  Brutal, certainly, but from a utilitarian perspective making a lethal example in front of the court of predators is probably going to save more mortal lives in the long run.

Given the audience, anything less than a lethal response to such a challenge would probably also have guaranteed Harry's death in reasonably short order.  I think it was pretty well established that half measures don't cut it when it comes to establishing fitness to survive among the Winter court, with their attitudes towards power and violence.

[raidem]

I'll give Harry the benefit of the doubt for one or a few killings of the sidhe that happen in this manner.   But, if it occurs more often, I would say that then it becomes evidence that Harry is walking away from a Right Hand path.

[Seidmadr]

I'll give Harry the benefit of the doubt for one or a few killings of the sidhe that happen in this manner.   But, if it occurs more often, I would say that then it becomes evidence that Harry is walking away from a Right Hand path.

Harry has never been a squeaky clean guy. He admits it himself, he has terrible rage issues, even before Lash, I mean. That's exactly why he fights monsters. So he can channel his rage into something useful. He enjoys laying down destruction upon his enemies, he isn't proud of it, but that's the guy he is. This is evident throughout the entire series, and even explicit in two speeches he does in White Night, one to Molly and one to Lash.
But he can't always get an outlet like that, and that's when his... dark moments happen. To me, the very worst wasn't Slate, or Susan and definately not the Sidhe. One could make a case for it being the ghouls in New Mexico, but that still happened while he was hopped up on Adrenaline and with recent trauma. No, I think the darkest is what he did to Cassius. That was deliberate cruelty. Cold blooded torture.

It isn't easy to just split it into good and evil. He tries to do good, because he enjoys being evil.
Which is why he is such an interesting character. If he had been able to stay on the straight-and-narrow, he wouldn't have been as fun to follow.

[Mira]

It isn't easy to just split it into good and evil. He tries to do good, because he enjoys being evil.
Which is why he is such an interesting character. If he had been able to stay on the straight-and-narrow, he wouldn't have been as fun to follow.

  I don't see Harry enjoying doing evil in any sense of the word.

[NickelobLight]

I saw that as self-preservation. Harry already compared the party to 'the first day in the prison yard' or words to that effect. What happens in prison? The strong inmates, (sidhe nobles or what-have-you), take a look at the new guy/girl & size him/her up. They look for weakness so they can prey on him/her.

Now look at it from Harry's perspective. He's a mortal (albeit a very powerful one), who's come into their world. Mortals are already prey to the sidhe. Couple that with the fact that many of them probably already have strong feelings for Harry due to his past deeds. If they can challenge/hurt Harry, they're basically doing the same to Mab through a proxy, probably without consequence. And who wouldn't want to be able to take a shot at the boss without fear of reprisal? Finally, he's backed them into a corner.

So it's like this. Harry walks in. Every head in the place turns to him. He's a well-known defender of humanity. One of the badder gangs there takes measure of him by hurting his escort, (the only other human in the place). He destroys the one, & tells the rest he'll happily do the same to them. He immediately gets challenged. If he had done anything else, he's painting the word 'victim' with a capital "V" on his forehead, & somebody in the court WOULD be taking a shot at him faster than you can say 'flicum bicus'. The ONLY option Harry had, in order to not be dead (again) during his first official Winter Court public appearance, was to take out that sidhe noble quickly & gruesomely.

[Hollorr]

I saw that as self-preservation. Harry already compared the party to 'the first day in the prison yard' or words to that effect. What happens in prison? The strong inmates, (sidhe nobles or what-have-you), take a look at the new guy/girl & size him/her up. They look for weakness so they can prey on him/her.

Now look at it from Harry's perspective. He's a mortal (albeit a very powerful one), who's come into their world. Mortals are already prey to the sidhe. Couple that with the fact that many of them probably already have strong feelings for Harry due to his past deeds. If they can challenge/hurt Harry, they're basically doing the same to Mab through a proxy, probably without consequence. And who wouldn't want to be able to take a shot at the boss without fear of reprisal? Finally, he's backed them into a corner.

So it's like this. Harry walks in. Every head in the place turns to him. He's a well-known defender of humanity. One of the badder gangs there takes measure of him by hurting his escort, (the only other human in the place). He destroys the one, & tells the rest he'll happily do the same to them. He immediately gets challenged. If he had done anything else, he's painting the word 'victim' with a capital "V" on his forehead, & somebody in the court WOULD be taking a shot at him faster than you can say 'flicum bicus'. The ONLY option Harry had, in order to not be dead (again) during his first official Winter Court public appearance, was to take out that sidhe noble quickly & gruesomely.

yep that seems to be right on the mark. though the original question was  why hasn't anyone called harry on it..on straight murder of a sidhe character which is what harry did.
I think the reason I didn't call him out on it because, It's a side of harry I have seen before on previous books and it didn't bothered me because the book was fiction and the sidhe was some random person that was ment to be a red shirt person.
Harry is like deadpool...a anti hero who isn't block by killing people.
It's kind of like the new arrow show.

as I read the book I know harry isn't a nice guy but neither is he a evil one...he's just some random fool trying to survive in a world filled with monsters and sometime to stop monster you have to become one or die before you become a monster.

yay I think I used my allusion right...well I hope so.

[Shecky]

Quick reminder, folks: Some of the interaction here is edging away from simple discussion and starting to heave into sight of interpersonal conflict. If you're feeling testy and think something's aimed personally at you, take a break and come back to it later once you've calmed down. Or if you can't do that, just don't come back to the thread that's setting you off.