Harry's murders of Non-humans! (Cold Days spoilers)

[wildone654]

I think Harry was counting on some one saying "how are you going to stop us?" and that that person had enough bad karma on his score card to warrant the bbq treatment.  Maybe a moral gamble, but I was totally ok with it.

[Discussion Bored]

Can someone clarify the rules of immortality in regards to the fae, or in the DV in general?  Do you have to have a powerful mantle?  IIRC, Harry thought it was impossible to kill Maeve initially.  The same goes for the creatures on Demonreach (they would return eventually). I'm wondering at what point creatures get the ability to come back from something like what Harry did at the party.

Thanks.

[Spaced Cowboy]

Thought it was both justified and the right (only ?) thing to do at the time. Wasn't bothered even slightly by Harry's actions then. He was being all alpha male, protecting his vulnerable female partner, and laying down a marker in an author-described first-day-in-the-prison-yard scenario.

Harry's not all sweetness and light, he lives on the borderlands between good and evil because he's a vector for beneficial (at least from our perspective) change. Such change never happens in the fixed and rigid domain of order and good, neither does it happen within the churning domain of chaos and evil, it needs elements of both chaos and order to construct the change that's needed from the situation that things are in.

[Hollorr]

Can someone clarify the rules of immortality in regards to the fae, or in the DV in general?  Do you have to have a powerful mantle?  IIRC, Harry thought it was impossible to kill Maeve initially.  The same goes for the creatures on Demonreach (they would return eventually). I'm wondering at what point creatures get the ability to come back from something like what Harry did at the party.

Thanks.

It's in cold days were it's explained but I wish I could explain it but I think I shall fail, so I shall leave it up to someone else. TCF!

I think Harry was counting on some one saying "how are you going to stop us?" and that that person had enough bad karma on his score card to warrant the bbq treatment.  Maybe a moral gamble, but I was totally ok with it.

yep..that fairy person was totally a red shirt person.

WARNING TV TROPES LINK ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK at being spoiled of almost anything.


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedShirt

[TheCuriousFan]

It's in cold days were it's explained but I wish I could explain it but I think I shall fail, so I shall leave it up to someone else. TCF!

I only recall a quote about how immortals are born on Halloween off the top of my head, not sure if that helps.

[vultur]

Can someone clarify the rules of immortality in regards to the fae, or in the DV in general?  Do you have to have a powerful mantle?  IIRC, Harry thought it was impossible to kill Maeve initially.  The same goes for the creatures on Demonreach (they would return eventually). I'm wondering at what point creatures get the ability to come back from something like what Harry did at the party.

The term is used ambiguously in the books at times - at one point Harry says to Bob that "everything there [the NN] is immortal".

Ordinary Fae are "immortal" in the sense of not aging, and they are not "mortal" in the sense of having mortal free will and the metaphysical weight/significance that goes along with it (breaking circles, etc.) either. Similarly for spirit denizens of the Nevernever like knowledge-spirits such as Bob and "thug demons" like Kalshazzak; the latter also have the extra benefit that when they're summoned to the real world, it's in an ectoplasm construct body, so when they're killed in the mortal world they're not really dead since it's not their real body. (This is discussed in GP in the context of the Nightmare possibly being a demon's ghost).

A rare set of powerful beings, such as the Faerie Queens, are "immortal" in the Cold Days sense. These beings are restored / regenerate even if "killed"; death is only temporary for them. However, on Halloween night, and in other special situations like the Stone Table (for Sidhe immortals anyway) they can be killed permanently, but their "mantle" passes to someone else, who likely eventually becomes a near copy of the original being. The info on this is from Bob in Cold Days.

[Discussion Bored]

Thanks for the clarifications.

I suppose what I'm wondering is, since Bob had not yet explained about how to actually kill an immortal, do we have any reason to believe that Harry expected the fae he killed at the party to survive in some form, though perhaps weakened?  Or did Harry realize he was destroying those he shattered (which, I realize, is sort of a strange question to ask since he turned them to ice and shattered them...but there are different rules for creatures of the Nevernever).

[peregrine]

I don't think Harry expects the rank and file sidhe to be immortal.  Hell, he didn't even think there was anything especially special about when he had Aurora killed, other than the general difficulty of trying to kill a creature with that much power.

[Sully]

Aurora was killed at a special conjunction, wasn't she? That's why she was vulnerable.

Yeah, I'd like some clarification on this sort of thing.  Wamps can be killed, but do they die of old age?  If so, what is their natural lifespan?  Same questions for the Reds and the Blacks.  What about demons(are they just Fae, or something different?)?

When a changeling chooses Fae, does that create a mantle?  Do all Fae have a mantle, or do mantles generally only exist for specific roles?  Do all Fae eventually reform(if not killed in auspicious days and places) when killed, or just the ones with mantles?  Does the location of the death matter, for being reformed(NN vs Earth).

If a Fae without a mantle exists, and it dies, does that power just disappear, or can nearby Fae gobble it up?  Does it stick around, like buried treasure?

[raidem]

Aurora was killed at a special conjunction, wasn't she? That's why she was vulnerable.

When the Queens bring out the Stone Table, everyone becomes vulnerable including the Queens.
What we didn't see in Summer Knight that we did see in Cold Days is the actual mantle jumping from Aurora to Lily, or in the case of CD from Lily to Sarissa.

[cass]

When the Queens bring out the Stone Table, everyone becomes vulnerable including the Queens.
What we didn't see in Summer Knight that we did see in Cold Days is the actual mantle jumping from Aurora to Lily, or in the case of CD from Lily to Sarissa.

And we didn't see it because Harry was passed out, not because there was anything particularly special about the transfer, right?

[Mira]

When the Queens bring out the Stone Table, everyone becomes vulnerable including the Queens.
What we didn't see in Summer Knight that we did see in Cold Days is the actual mantle jumping from Aurora to Lily, or in the case of CD from Lily to Sarissa.

Then there is the little matter that iron was used, I think the Fae are vulnerable to that at any time.

[shiz]

A) It wasn't that the sidhe was disagreeing with Harry, it was what he was disagreeing with. Harry told them that they cannot kill or torture mortals -- who are also sentient beings -- while in his presence. The sidhe in question piped up with the equivalent of "you can't tell us what to do!" It wasn't that he wasn't human, it was the fact that he seemed to be active condoning the kidnapping/murder/torture/rape of innocents. Harry would've reacted similarly to mortals who did the same. It would be speciesism if Harry treated the sidhe differently because "ah, he's a faery, that's who they are."

B) The winter sidhe don't seem to respect much aside from violence and power. Harry knew that there was no other way of enforcing his rules in about the two seconds that he had to make a decision.

I really like this.

From a moral perspective killing is "always" wrong, so even the first one was morally questionable.

Depends on whose morals you are using to judge. 

[raidem]

Then there is the little matter that iron was used, I think the Fae are vulnerable to that at any time.

Iron wouldn't have killed Aurora.  It would only have caused her to reform had the injuries not been done at a conjuction of space or time.  What really only matters is the immortals where the Ladies are thought to be the least of them.

[ebliss1]

Before the party, Harry mentions that he was going out to "first day in the prison yard". The #1 rule of the prison yard is "don't show fear". In fact, your best bet for that is to find the biggest, baddest prisoner and beat  the ever-loving hell out of him to establish your credentials.

In the Winter Court, no such credentials would be awarded to a Knight who showed any sort of mercy. To quote Vince McMahon here, "ruthless aggression" is the name of the game for them and the only thing they respond to. Harry understood this, and acted accordingly. His first "kill" was on Mab's orders and as such, did nothing for him. The second was his way of establishing his identity and establishing the ground rules for how he was going to deal with the Sidhe from then on out. It was pre-meditated, but was not outside the realm of "standard behavior" for ranking nobles of the Winter Court. He understood this, and its necessity, so no taint or corruption would apply to him afterward. He didn't want to do it, but he had to, and that's the crucial difference.