"Teleported Elsewhere" / etc vs. "Taken Out"

[g33k]

Like the topic says.

By FATE convention, "Taken Out" means no-longer-an-actor-within-the-scene (rather than something simple like "Dead," or "Bleeding Out") .

But what about various all-or-nothing narrative tropes:  teleported elsewhere, fell into a deep trap (see you 3 floors lower), etc?  Many would seem to apply the "Taken Out" consequence as their ONLY possible (or at least likely) effect.  Do you say they need to get enough Shifts to "Take Out" the victim (or they have no effect)?  Or...?

Thanks!

[Taran]

The problem, I see, is consequences.  Being taken out could lead to consequences that last long-term.  I wonder, maybe, about it being more like a concession...

Falling into a deep pit is likely to kill you, but let's say you survive but you're out of the combat

He tried to teleport you into a wall but you can concede and say you ended up out of the combat too far away.

The narrative of trying to teleport someone away (an attack) could be that he only gets "pieces" of your body and not your whole person until you're taken out or concede, at which point they've been teleported away...

Maybe it can done as a Powerful enough maneuver invoked for effect...but, as a GM, I'd require a minimum of shifts of power.  In this case, maybe the shifts would have to be enough to take the person out...maybe not.

tricky.  I obviously don't have THE answer.  Just throwing out ideas....

[Sanctaphrax]

Really depends on the source of the effect, I'd say.

For a thaumaturgical effect, a take-out-or-nothing setup might be appropriate.

For an unusual type of attack, (like the claws of a teleportation monster or something) you'll have to get creative in coming up with ways for stress and consequences to look in-story.

For an Aspect Compel, the rules are well-established.

For other things, the GM could come up with all kinds of ways to handle things. For example, I have some trap houserules that cover the "falling into a pit" thing.

[Troy]

I would see "Teleported Away" as an example of Concession rather than a Taken Out result... In my mind it goes down like this:

The characters are fighting and exchanging blows. The character with the ability to escape via teleportation is losing the fight and he knows that he can't last another exchange or he will be at the mercy of the character so. So, the player offers a concession in which his character teleports away and the "winning" character is able to get something he wants in exchange.

Taken Out usually means that the winner of the Conflict narrates what happens to the character that's been Taken Out, right? If you don't want to kill the guy, you could say something like that happens. Conversely, your storyteller might take out your PC, but he doesn't want to kill you, so he says "The Big Bad rips the grimoire from your hands and blasts you with Unnamable magical energies! You awake to find yourself washing ashore on a lake in the woods beneath the light of the full moon..."

Something like that, right?

[g33k]

I would see "Teleported Away" as an example of Concession rather than a Taken Out result... In my mind it goes down like this:

The characters are fighting and exchanging blows. The character with the ability to escape via teleportation is losing the fight and he knows that he can't last another exchange or he will be at the mercy of the character so. So, the player offers a concession in which his character teleports away and the "winning" character is able to get something he wants in exchange.

Taken Out usually means that the winner of the Conflict narrates what happens to the character that's been Taken Out, right? If you don't want to kill the guy, you could say something like that happens. Conversely, your storyteller might take out your PC, but he doesn't want to kill you, so he says "The Big Bad rips the grimoire from your hands and blasts you with Unnamable magical energies! You awake to find yourself washing ashore on a lake in the woods beneath the light of the full moon..."

Something like that, right?

Not a teleporter who gets Taken Out retreats out of conflict, but an outside agency -- trap, spell, etc -- that teleports the target, as an offensive action.  It's almost like applying an Aspect to the target, like "gut-shot" after being shot.  Only the Aspect is "Teleported Elsewhere," and results in an effect as if Taken Out...

Looks to me like this is a narrative weakness of the FATE engine, as one seldom can apply anything like a Taken Out unless you wear a target's stress-track & consequences down (or one-hit with massive shifts of damage?) .

[Taran]

I'd allow it with things like mooks.

In D&D there are one-shot spells that effectively take people out of the combat without necessary killing them or eating away their HP's.  They're rare, though.

So I see this as similar.  You want to bypass their "hp's" (read: consequences)and completely remove them with a single shot.  In D&D these are typically High Level spells and usually have saving throws that allow a target to resist.  Failure means the spell fails all together (unless it's a save for half damage or something).

So, yeah.  I don't really see this as an issue that's specific to Fate.  You need a very powerful effect for this to happen.

As far as traps go, if I use the same D&D comparison, falling 3 stories or more is probably a save or die trap.  And even if they don't die from the falling damage, they aren't likely to re-join any combat unless they can fly etc...they're effectively "taken out" of the fight.

I don't see why a trap like that can't be used in Fate.  Make an athletics or fall 3 zones down.  Take falling damage...I'd actually just make the trap "attack" the person instead of taking falling damage, though.  They still have to climb up 3 zones.

[vultur]

I'd allow it with things like mooks.

Well, since mooks don't take consequences, you'd only need a Weapon:4 or so to ensure a Taken Out on every hit against humans or others without Toughness powers. Though doing a teleport-as-evocation-attack effect would probably require some weird Sponsored Magic... and I might require some extra shifts, honestly (EDIT: if the teleport could be a "useful" effect and not just "get out of this scene!")

Weapon ratings (IMO) can be used as a more general sort of "power" -- not necessarily deadliness as such. An immobilizing or teleporting spell could still have a high Weapon rating, even if it doesn't kill -- it's still highly effective at getting  a Taken Out result, thus high Weapon rating.

If you DID use the teleport-elsewhere spell against non-mooks, and consequences resulted, you could still explain it as the target trying to dodge the spell, falls over wrong and gets bruised up. Or it could mess up, teleport them only a few feet, but into an awkward position where they break a limb. (Though it might be simpler to try to limit it to use against mooks, yeah.)

EDIT:
Warp Portal
Type: Outsider Magic evocation, attack
Power: 6 shifts
Target: One target
Opposed by: Target's Athletics
Effect: Weapon:6 physical attack. If this Takes Out the target, they're teleported to a random spot within a mile or so - but always well out of the current scene.
Variations: If your game allows mental evocations, this could be a mental attack opposed by Discipline.

[Mr. Death]

The way I see it, a teleport Evocation effect would be like any other evocation effect--it's a line of sight spell that has to hit its target. So treat it the same way you'd treat a fireball--a mild consequence to avoid it might be the target ducking out of the way and rolling his ankle, while a Taken Out result is a direct hit that sends him to New Jersey.

[Ulfgeir]

As far as traps go, if I use the same D&D comparison, falling 3 stories or more is probably a save or die trap.  And even if they don't die from the falling damage, they aren't likely to re-join any combat unless they can fly etc...they're effectively "taken out" of the fight.

Heh. In classic D&D, if you were high enough level you would have more hitpoints than your warhorse, and you would be expected to have the equivalnnt of Batman's utility-belt filled with magical goodies. If the character was a monk of sufficient level, he would simpy brush himself off after landing, an not having taken any damage at all.

/Ulfgeir

[Taran]

I'm just saying that if you fall into a pit, you're likely to spend most of the combat trying to get out.  In D&D, At first level, a 10 foot pit might be all it takes while at a high enough level, even death is a mere inconvenience.

Somehow my analogy has fallen apart.

My point is that in any system, trying to take someone out while avoiding the stress system or hit points or whatever is tough to do and limited to certain situations.  So it's not just unique to Fate.

I think Mr. Death and Vulture spelled out the solution pretty well, actually.

[g33k]

Heh. In classic D&D, if you were high enough level you would have more hitpoints than your warhorse...

bleh.

In classic D&D, that petite li'l 4'11" elven maiden in her chainmaille bikini tigerskin bikini might have more hitpoints than her WAR-ELEPHANT .    Class&Level weirdness of this kind is one of the reasons that D&D(anyversion) is near the bottom of my "will play" list.

[Ulfgeir]

bleh.

In classic D&D, that petite li'l 4'11" elven maiden in her chainmaille bikini tigerskin bikini might have more hitpoints than her WAR-ELEPHANT .    Class&Level weirdness of this kind is one of the reasons that D&D(anyversion) is near the bottom of my "will play" list.

Heh. think even a wizard might actually manage it at high enough level. And they got d4's as Hit Points..

/Ulfgeir

[Taran]

bleh.

In classic D&D, that petite li'l 4'11" elven maiden in her chainmaille bikini tigerskin bikini might have more hitpoints than her WAR-ELEPHANT .    Class&Level weirdness of this kind is one of the reasons that D&D(anyversion) is near the bottom of my "will play" list.

I don't know...I think you're being overly harsh.  I always liked the chainmail bikini.

[g33k]

I don't know...I think you're being overly harsh.  I always liked the chainmail bikini.

Yeah, but she's riding an elephant.
It's gotta be tiger-skin.

[g33k]

BTW ...

Thanks all for the informative discussion!