Magic and Money

[Cadd]

I think it's very valuable to separate the ideas about "get rich fast with magic" from "use magic to help me make money".

Harry isn't broke because he uses magic in investigation, or because he's crappy at either. He's broke because he continually gets sidetracked and he don't want the sleazy PI jobs. A PI willing to take the sleazier jobs will make more money than one who wont, no matter if there's magic involved or not. A PI that makes sure he gets paid for every job, or at least only takes pro-bono jobs that actually will get him further, paid, jobs will also make a lot more than Harry.

The various "get filthy rich ridiculously fast" will almost always fall flat due to varying combinations of 1. Someone bigger already has that cornered, 2. You'll make enemies or 3. You're treading uncomfortably close to the laws.

However, the "get rich by working honestly, helped with magic" will make money slower, but need not, and probably will not, run in to the above problems.

[Taran]

I think it's very valuable to separate the ideas about "get rich fast with magic" from "use magic to help me make money".

Yes.  But I'm not only talking about 'making money more slowly'.

Let's consider a researcher.  To research questions of Good +3 (professional level research), you need lab of 3 or higher.  To own one yourself, you need to have a resource of 5+, rent one from a company that has one or slowly buy one over time by improving your lab.

If you are a wizard with a Lore of 4, as a simple ritual, you can use thaumaturgy as a skill replacement and automatically know the answer.  Also, it takes 10 minutes instead of hours or days.

That's a HUGE advantage.  You are going to get rich WAY faster than the scientist because you need less time and less materials.

Of course, the problem lies with proving your facts to mundanes in a scientific community.  But, if you already have the answer, it makes doing the scientific research easier because you know where to start (or how to come up with the proof you need).

But there are lots of jobs where you don't need hard proof.  You just need an answer.

[Cadd]

Oh absolutely, it'll be a lot faster than without magic, but still nowhere near the speed of schemes like "predict/manipulate the stockmarket" etc. You'll still need the full range of background knowledge, and working out a plausible way for you to have acquired the information if mundanes start doubting you etc.

You'll probably be at least twice as effective as someone without magic, but it still puts it in a different league from stock market playing or conjuring large amounts of precious materials or raw cash.

Your example would probably be at least as fast as magical drug-smuggling, though, and a lot less risky!

[Sanctaphrax]

Let's consider a researcher.  To research questions of Good +3 (professional level research), you need lab of 3 or higher.  To own one yourself, you need to have a resource of 5+, rent one from a company that has one or slowly buy one over time by improving your lab.

You probably don't need to do research for a Good question, though. If you have a skill of 4 (like the wizard), you can just use the Answers trapping to know the answer pretty reliably.

As YS says, "dedicated research is something that might happen when you fail a Scholarship check". But of course library ratings ensure that if a smart PC is actually likely to fail their Scholarship check they'll probably never find a library that can answer the question. Which might be why nobody ever uses the library/workshop rules.

[Taran]

You probably don't need to do research for a Good question, though. If you have a skill of 4 (like the wizard), you can just use the Answers trapping to know the answer pretty reliably.

Knowing whether or not there is lead in your water requires "research" because you need to sample the water.  You can't just "know" the answer.  Cities pay companies to test water and sewage all the time.  You can know what the result of the last sample was ten years ago, maybe, but that won't help you.

[g33k]

Knowing whether or not there is lead in your water requires "research" because you need to sample the water.  You can't just "know" the answer.  Cities pay companies to test water and sewage all the time.  You can know what the result of the last sample was ten years ago, maybe, but that won't help you.

This seems an interesting example, from a game-mechanical perspective.  You can summon... say, something water-elemental-ish to "test" your water.  But you won't get an answer in usable PPM/PPB/etc (parts per million/billion), 'cos the being you summoned doesn't grok that.

Maybe you have a bunch of "control" samples on hand ...
Is the water purer than this control?  Purer than that one? 
Show me all the control-samples whose impurities are ALSO in this other sample you're examining.
Etc...

Or just do it yourself, with the control-samples and your test-sample and aquamancy spells...?

Are these too complex?  What would be the "best" way to do this, game mechanically?

But in the end, I'm not sure this is "profitable" (to return to the thread):  you need output from testing-equipment; print-outs, data-files, backups on tape/DVD/etc.  The water-companies who BUY this data won't take your hand-written lab notes, "the Water Spirit sez the test-sample is LESS PURE than the 5ppm control, but MORE PURE than the 50ppm control, and matches the impurities to arsenic, various antibiotics, nitrogen, and 47 species of bacteria (2 coliform, which is below the threshold for reporting)."

[Arcane]

Well, I think it would be appropriate to repost this location and associated face from the Semi-Divine Comedy Campaign since it's a good example of practitioners using their magic to make money.


Location: Ritter and Reynolds Cosmetic Enhancement Center
Situated at the beautiful and glamorous locale of South Beach, Ritter and Reynolds Cosmetic Enhancement Center is a clinic that uses both conventional plastic surgery and "revolutionary and exclusive proprietary procedures" to enhance the appearance of those who could afford their fees.  With a reputation for miraculous work, they are the clinic of choice for the rich and powerful jet set of Miami and beyond.  What most of their patrons do not know is that the clinic's "revolutionary and exclusive proprietary procedures" are actually magic.  It's not difficult at all to cast spells on a patient after they're under anesthesia.  Nothing that actually breaks any of the Laws of Magic.  The doctors are too canny to cross any lines like that.  But they might skirt the edge on occasions.  David Ritter specializes in conjuring false flesh to enhance a patient's appearance beyond the capabilities of conventional medicine, while Samantha Reynolds is a biomancer who can both selectively destroy fat cells and blemishes as well as speed up a patient's recovery from conventional surgery.  Among the Clued-In and Supernatural set, payment can be in favors and services instead of or in addition to money.  For such clientele, not only cosmetic enhancement is offered but outright total apperance alteration if so desired.  In other words, almost perfect disguises made to order.  The clinic of course also offers discreet non-cosmetic medical services to the Clued-In and Supernatural set for the right price.  Clinic security and custodial services are provided by ghosts who have pledged their loyal service to the doctors in return for getting to enjoy corporeal existence thanks to bodies conjured by Dr. Ritter.
The Idea: Cosmetic Enhancement Center With A Magical Edge
The Aspect: Posh And Stylish
The Face: Dr. David Ritter

Face: Dr. David Ritter (Submerged)

Dr. David Ritter is both a competent plastic surgeon and a weak but highly skilled thaumaturgist with an intense focus on conjuration.  He's parleyed his talents into a life of wealth and influence, collecting money and favors from the rich and powerful from all aspects of society, mundane and supernatural alike.  His basic goal in life is to maintain his wealth and status and insuring the safety of himself, his partner Reynolds and their clinic from the various potential threats of the supernatural world.  To that end he likes to ingratiate himself with many different supernatural factions and make the clinic useful enough to be in their interests to protect (or at least not draw attention by causing high profile trouble there) while still maintaining a stance of neutrality.  Indeed, while not Accorded Neutral Ground Dr. Ritter has managed to successfully get members of the local supernatural community to informally agree to treat the Clinic as neutral ground and not instigate any conflicts there.

High Concept: Magical And Medical Cosmetic Practitioner
Trouble: Some Clients Come With Baggage
Other Aspects: Renowned In My Field, Living The Sweet Life And Loving It, It Pays To Be Connected, Prepared For Rainy Days, I Always Land On My Feet
Skills:
Superb (+5): Discipline, Lore
Great (+4): Contacts, Resources
Good (+3): Presence, Scholarship
Fair (+2): Conviction, Empathy, Deceit
Average (+1): Alertness, Athletics, Endurance, Rapport, Stealth
Powers:
Thaumaturgy [-3]
Refinement: 2 Focus Item Slots [-1]
Refinement: 2 Focus Item Slots [-1]
Refinement: 4 Enchanted Item Slots[-1]
Stunts:
Doctor (Plastic Surgeon)
Trust Me, I'm A Doctor. Requires Doctor: Doctors tend to inspire trust and confidence in their area of expertise.  Allows one to use their Scholarship plus bonuses derived from Doctor stunt in place of Rapport for any situation or circumstance in which their skills, knowledge or reputation as a doctor is relevant, such as convincing someone that a certain procedure is for the best or negotiating payment for their services.
Lush Life
Specializations
+1 Conjuring Complexity
Focus Items:
Retractor (+1 Crafting Frequency, +1 Conjuration Complexity)
Scalpel (+2 Conjuration Complexity)
Surgical Stapler (+2 Conjuration Complexity)
Enchanted Items
Enchanted Fabreeze Application - when sprayed over clothing allows one to apply an 5 shift Block or Armor:2 vs a physical attack of one's choice 2 times a session.  "Recharged" by mixing up some more and applying treatment to clothes.
3 potions or expendable items good for 2 uses a session

Standard Cosmetic Alteration Treatment
Type: Conjuration
Complexity: Base Complexity of 2 – flesh that is basically melded with the patient and moves when the users own is moved, such as for facial expressions, +5 shifts for Superb (+5) Believability, Extra Shifts depending on desired duration (default is 1 day) – typically +4 shifts for a month.
Effect: Creates an ectoplasm construct similar to a Flesh Mask on a patient that lasts for the alotted duration unless dispelled or destroyed beforehand, allowing the conjurer to grant the patient any desired appearance imagined for the duration of its existence.
Variations: The above spell is usually used for clueless patrons to help enhance their appearance.  Duration between "maintenance sessions" can be extended beyond a month by getting a signed consent waiver (Rapport declaration), which would allow one to get 2 more shifts to make construct last a season.  If they actually signed their full True Name on the consent waiver that can be employed to extend the duration even further, giving the patient an entire year before needing to come in again.  Clued-In and Supernatural patients can request a variation of the treatment in which Believability is increased even higher at the cost of decreased duration, which is perfect for short term disguises that are incredibly difficult to detect.

[blackstaff67]

"Hey musicians!  Dropped and broke your instrument?  Don't drop a grand!  Come to Duba's Tubas and more!  We specialize in woodwinds and brass winds!"

Aspects have been mentioned in previous posts ("Duba's Tubas and More!"), but his original elemental power as written up is Earth magic.  Besides a Crafting of 3 and Performance of 2, he also has Chloromancy +1 as a Theme for his Thaumaturgy.  BTW, Duba in Slavic refers to or means "oaken or oak-like."  Turns out it (Duba) was the name of the family on my father's side of the family that we know little about.

Wolfgang uses his magic to make break-resistant musical instruments; between his Earth magic and his Chloromancy, his instruments normally stand up pretty well.  I'm not sure about getting rich fast, but being able to run a shop without regard (much) to electricity while being able to turn crappy used instruments (or even items) into quality instruments is a savings all by itself.  No Law violation, not even gray.  Given how much musical instruments can go for (outside a pawn shop), being able to sell quality instruments 10-15% below the competition can easily justify a decent income.  Not broke, but comfortable (Resources 1). 

 

   

[toturi]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/24/traders-may-have-gotten-last-weeks-fed-news-7-milliseconds-early/
I wonder if a wizard could have used magic to get that information via option number 3.

[Troy]

I think most of the tried-and-true ways to make money using magic are Lawbreaking. You have assassinations... You have your love potions... You have your bringing your dead loved ones back to life... You've got erasing mistakes from the past...  Even the Cosmetic Surgery posted by Arcane up above could be considered Lawbreaking.

When I first saw the title of this thread I thought of making currency with magic. And I was thinking that you should take a look at your money. They tell you all that stuff is printed or minted there to prevent counterfeiting, but it's there as part of a magical ritual. The bills in my wallet only work because me and everyone I transact with believe in them. The pyramid, the eagles, the stars, the images of sacred locations and fallen heroes, the numerolgy, it all contributes to cement the spell and maintain it. Otherwise worthless pieces of paper and bits of metal given immense value through alchemical rituals.

I was reminded of books I've read by Tracy Twyman.   Solomon's Treasure: The Magic and Mystery of America's Money, stuff like that.

Doesn't Elaine make a good living as a "consultant?"

[blackstaff67]

Ruling the cosmetic surgery thing as Lawbreaking is a bit much.  There's no violation of Free Will, the same human brain/soul construct is inside the same unaltered human body and as far as I can tell, he's only altering the outward (that is, cosmetic) appearance of the client without altering the body's chronological lifespan at all.  At worst, light gray (taupe?).

[PirateJack]

Not even that, since it's not a transformation of the subject. It's basically just a more solid phatasm.

[Locnil]

<heh>  Over in the Ars Magica rpg community, the same debate comes up regularly. 

There are plenty of ways that one could get wealthy relatively quickly (in either game-universe).  In the Dresdenverse, the key catch (it seems to me) is that the Universe itself is a moral place.  You get Lawbreaker Stunts even if the WCouncil has no idea you've done anything wrong.  And if you want to get rich via magic... well, you have to really believe.  You have to take one of the fundamental creative forces of the universe, and use it for something as banal and petty as getting wealthy... and really believe that this is the right thing to do. 

That's... pretty pathetic, morally speaking. 

The older you get (in general, I know there are exceptions) the more conservative you get.  The Council is grotesquely rich because they have invested -- conservatively, but consistently -- for a very VERY VERY LONG TIME.  The only reason they don't own the whole world is that they aren't the only investors with the same sort of continuity & track record.  Given Salic Law and standard mortal inheritance, I'm sure that there are "wizarding families" (to use something from the Other Harry) who are also quite wealthy, albeit not on WCouncil scope.

Given how long-lived wizards tend to be, I expect that mundane methods of building wealth -- conservative, long-range investment strategies -- probably suffice, even for individuals who aren't inheriting from generations of wizards before them...

However, if a player wants to GetRichQuick(tm), remind them that it's easy:  just spend their advancement points on Resources, maybe grabbing a Resources Stunt to enhance matters.  If they do *NOT* buy the Resources, then you're afraid -- as GM -- that Something Will Happen to their GRQ scheme, and "somehow" they won't have the benefits that high Resources gives them.  If they want stories that lead to improved Resources, go for it!  Possibly even handing out the Resources *AS* the reward, not as points for them to spend on Resources.

Yeah. I even participated in one of those, though in an ancillary way.

With regards to the morals, though, I'm with Taran. Making money really shouldn't be seen as wrong - it's a rather unhealthy mindset.

With that said, the setting supports your statements - the Council's financial division are mentioned a few times, and apparently they are quite good at their job. Guess you don't have to literally be a wizard to be a financial wizard, but it sure helps.

I think most of the tried-and-true ways to make money using magic are Lawbreaking. You have assassinations... You have your love potions... You have your bringing your dead loved ones back to life... You've got erasing mistakes from the past...  Even the Cosmetic Surgery posted by Arcane up above could be considered Lawbreaking.

When I first saw the title of this thread I thought of making currency with magic. And I was thinking that you should take a look at your money. They tell you all that stuff is printed or minted there to prevent counterfeiting, but it's there as part of a magical ritual. The bills in my wallet only work because me and everyone I transact with believe in them. The pyramid, the eagles, the stars, the images of sacred locations and fallen heroes, the numerolgy, it all contributes to cement the spell and maintain it. Otherwise worthless pieces of paper and bits of metal given immense value through alchemical rituals.

I was reminded of books I've read by Tracy Twyman.   Solomon's Treasure: The Magic and Mystery of America's Money, stuff like that.

Doesn't Elaine make a good living as a "consultant?"

Interesting idea.

[molten_dragon]

But remember that money for a wizard isn't necessarily what it would be for us. In the world of a wizard, the currency is favors and power, not money.

I'm not sure how well that really holds up.  Marcone is an excellent example of how to turn money into power, both mundane and supernatural.

[g33k]

I suspect we're deep into YMMV territory here.   

Just so it's clear:  this seems to be, from my best understanding, "How the Dresdenverse works."  It seems to be a moral universe, that actively wants people to do the Right Thing.  There seems to be an Almighty in the Judeo-Christian sense; it's geek-chic to avoid using the actual terms from religion, but I find "the White God" as a phrase tends to suggest that there is NOT such an "Almighty," which seems... incorrect (for the Dresdenverse).

Also, to be clear:  I'm understanding this thread to be "make money with magic" rather than the (very different, to my mind) "what magical pursuits will likely make money?"

So, from THAT context...

With regards to the morals, though, I'm with Taran.  Making money really shouldn't be seen as wrong - it's a rather unhealthy mindset.

I repeat:  it's not so much that it's wrong (magic-based moneymaking) as it is just "pathetic."

We ALL need money; it buys food for the table, pays mortgage/rent/whatever, gets us medical service when we need it, etc.  We get special treats for our loved ones with it, we buy art that we love, we throw awesome parties with it, etc.

And yet...

"Money is a necessary evil," "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven," etc (that's Christianity).  Hinduism understands pursuit of "wealth" (artha) to be appropriate insofar as it enables one to behave appropriately -- make donations, contribute to an ordered society, etc -- but a "sin" (obstacle to dharma, righteousness) if pursued for its own sake or to excess.

And so on...  I'm sure we can all cite plenty of examples of pursuit-of-wealth leading to immoral and even "evil" choices.

Is it automatically wrongbad?  Nope.  Is there a Lawbreaker Stunt for it?  Nope.

Is it... risky?  Well, YMMV...

Again:  you have a fundamental universal creative force alive within your soul, on-tap like Bud Lite but finer than one of Mac's brews.  It's something more rare than artistic genius, and MUCH more potent.  Can you imagine:  Da Vinci the sign-painter?  Isn't that kind of a... well... pathetic use of his genius?  Not that it's "wrong," or "bad..." just "pathetic."

Consider the "artist who sold their soul" trope.  Not a literal Deal with the Devil, just compromise after compromise.  In the end, a talented writer is writing ad-copy at a commercial shop, a Fine Art photographer is shooting glorified snapshots for industry & trade publications, etc; they feel like they have "whored out their talent."   And the fire of your character's soul -- the most intimate talent, their magic -- is slipping into fishnets and a micromini as we speak.  Hey man, sex sells!  And if you're really sexy, like, magically sexy... sex sells for a hell of a lot of money!  Errrrr, not that "Hell" had anything to do with it...

You COULD be doing something to build/enhance/glorify/etc creation, to help people, to make the world better.  You COULD be working with the moral "pull" of the Dresdenverse.  What do you do instead?   If I were Michael Carpenter, I'd probably say you seemed to be glorifying Mammon with your magic .

If the *player* wants to play a wealthy wizard, fine & dandy... I have several such concepts percolating in the back of my own mind!  Sounds like fun, and I'd be much more on-board with that thread.

If the *character* wants to get wealthy via wizardry (not "I want to pursue *this* fascinating magical thing, because my magic sings that song to me... oh hey, and it might just make me rich, too!" but "how can I get rich with this Magical GetRichQuick Stick I've got?" -- then I begin to question; were I GM'ing, I'd probably be throwing wealth-temptations in front of the character, to see if they really can stay the moral course.. or if the urge-to-wealth has a stronger tug than their moral compass.  Then again, that too could be a fun concept to play out, seeing if your character can indeed skirt that line...

With all that said... I'ma gonna self-report this for Moderation.  Cos when all is said and done, it may be "about the Dresdenverse" -- which I am sure is a moral 'verse -- but the whole argument feels to me like it's getting too close to real-world-morality.  Peoples' positions on moneymaking and the RealWorld legitimacy/morality/methodology thereof can flashpoint over into feeling personally-attacked.      Not my intention!