Comments thread for "The Laws of Magic: Part 6 of 8"

[iago]

The Fifth Law of Magic is:  Never reach beyond the borders of life.

http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/news/archives/2007/07/the_laws_of_mag_3.php

[krvh]

Part of the law was "waking the ghosts of the Civil War for one last assault" 

In Grave Peril

(click to show/hide)

Harry empowered the ghosts of the dead to take out Bianca and Co.  Given The White Council's general feelings toward him this should have been close enough to count even if in a gray area.

Edited it for spoiler because I'm compulsive

[hollow49]

That particular scene has caused some debate on the boards before. The concensus seemed, IIRC, to be that real distinction is that when Harry did his trick, he was simply giving power to what was already present (thanks to the Nightmare) with his own energies, whereas necromancers bring raise ghosts from slumber, and empower them with the energies drawn from death. The drawing on death, not life, seemed to give a very different feel to the magic in Dead Beat. Perhaps Harry managed to do his bit only because the bit that really required necromantic energies had already been done for him. Even then, not that the GP ghosts had to make bodies for themselves in order to harm the living whereas the spectres raised by Cowl could do so while remaining incorporeal.

[Kristine]

I have to agree that it has more to do with intention here.  If there is a ghost already present no one could blame a magic practitioner for working with them but to call up a spirit and force them to stay seems to be what this law was more about.  If having contact with the dead was out of line then the guy who spoke to the dead that Harry got his information from in Dead Beat (I don't remember his name and I don't have the books handy) would be in trouble all the time.  He also calls the dead but they come if they are willing - I didn't get the impression that he forces them back to answer questions.

Although I don't know how to fit this law in with the Bob from the TV series other than to say the White council seems to allow the breaking of the laws under curtain curcumstances for themselves alone.

[Rel Fexive]

I guess I'd never really seen the "disrupt the natural order" part of this law before, which is a bit dense of me.

[hollow49]

I guess I'd never really seen the "disrupt the natural order" part of this law before, which is a bit dense of me.

Well, the 6th and 7th laws are as much "Thou shalt not tamper with the End of the World Button" as merely disrupting natural order - it's a different scale altogether than common necromancy (although the Darkhallow probably counts on the same level as calling forth the Children of the Old Gods, mostly necromancers seem to confine themselves to smaller-scale effects).

[DrygonDM]

I have to agree that it has more to do with intention here.  If there is a ghost already present no one could blame a magic practitioner for working with them but to call up a spirit and force them to stay seems to be what this law was more about.  If having contact with the dead was out of line then the guy who spoke to the dead that Harry got his information from in Dead Beat (I don't remember his name and I don't have the books handy) would be in trouble all the time.  He also calls the dead but they come if they are willing - I didn't get the impression that he forces them back to answer questions.

Although I don't know how to fit this law in with the Bob from the TV series other than to say the White council seems to allow the breaking of the laws under curtain curcumstances for themselves alone.

Ectomancer's name = Mortimer Lindquist

There are also several hints at there being several "levels" of Ghost
- the rarest being one that has sentience.
More than just an echo of a specific memory, or emotion.

Morty talks about the ghosts as if there were "real" people.
And Harry's dad showing up [Dead Beat] - and acting like he would have if he was actually alive.

I think that Morty's warning from a Warden was to not try the "Enslave a Ghost" side of Necromancy.
Talking to them, asking questions - or for their cooperation, is alright.

Though I tend to agree that if Harry had displayed the same abilities as Morty,
Old Morgan would have tried to come down on him for breaking the Law.
New Morgan would just have him watched a lot closer, and not say anything to Harry.

Remember that the Laws apply on in regards to Mortals.
Bob is an Air Spirit from the NeverNever, residing in a skull. He was never Human.

For the Laws that apply to Supernatural Beings, see the Unselee Accords.

[Kristine]

For the Laws that apply to Supernatural Beings, see the Unselee Accords.

Do we have a copy of those somewhere we can see?

Hey, guys from Evil Hat games, Do you have a copy of the Unseelie Accords so we will know what characters can do to non-human folks?  Or considering Fae rules maybe a layman's version of those?

(I'm assuming that not all the bad guys (or possibly not even most) are going to be human.)

[DrygonDM]

From what I have read, over the Harry Dresden Files Series,
everyone has to abide by their Word. Especially all the Fea.
It's just that the Sidhes have a greater ability (skill) at tricking Humans,
without "ever telling a lie".

If any "supernatural" being gives their word, they are compelled to abide by it.
Remember that this is the "letter" of the agreement, and not the "spirit".

This includes Wizards, Dark Wizards, Sorcerers - and even Warlocks.

Breaking this Oath, causes the Oathbreaker to lose power, and become more vulnerable to the powers of the one(s) that the oath was given - Leandee gain power over Harry in Grave Peril in this manner, even to the point of being able to heal his wounds = something she would not normally have been able to do. Mab gained this same power over Harry in Summer Knight, when she obtained Harry's contract from Leande.

Another is the Rite of Challenge, to call out any supernatural being for Political Reasons: which was done between Harry and Ortaga in Blood Rites;
or "Due Justice" - such as what was done in White Night.

Anyone catch anymore ?

[Kristine]

This includes Wizards, Dark Wizards, Sorcerers - and even Warlocks.

I thought it was only for those who signed the accords?  I thought Sorcerers and Warlocks don't have a group to belong to so they don't have to abide by the accords - but then neither do any non-human beings have to keep their word.


(is there a difference in this series between Sorcerers and Warlocks?)

[DrygonDM]

No, anyone that can use magic automatically falls under The Accords, and the Laws of the White Council, which is why they have the Wardens to hunt offenders down.

It was upon this technicality that Harry called the White Court Vampires on, in White Night.

A Sorcerer is simply a person that has more then a "Minor Talent" but is not as powerful as a Wizard. A Wizard has learned to use more then just Sorcery.

A Warlock is anyone that has already fallen to the Dark Side, and used their Magic to harm others. Regardless of their intention for why they used their power. Poor Molly.

Now, it has been shown that a Warlock can be redeemed, like both Harry and Molly.
But a Wizard of "accepted standing" has to vouch for their behaver, and to teach them how to become a full Wizard.

[Kristine]

So an untrained Wizard could be a Sorcerer? 

Would the Alphas be considered Sorcerers because they have learned the one spell? or just minor talents?

[krvh]

Although I don't know how to fit this law in with the Bob from the TV series other than to say the White council seems to allow the breaking of the laws under curtain curcumstances for themselves alone.

Remember that the Laws apply on in regards to Mortals.
Bob is an Air Spirit from the NeverNever, residing in a skull. He was never Human.

Kristine was asking about Bob in the TV show who was the Spirit of a Wizard Sealed into a skull (presuably his own) only answers I have to this are.

1. TV reality is slightly diferent then Book or rpg reality.
2. This happened hundreds of years ago laws could have been diferent.
3. Could have been the Blackstaff that did it. (Every time something illegal happened it was the black staff.   Yah that's it.)

[Priscellie]

Kristine was asking about Bob in the TV show who was the Spirit of a Wizard Sealed into a skull (presuably his own) only answers I have to this are.

1. TV reality is slightly diferent then Book or rpg reality.
2. This happened hundreds of years ago laws could have been diferent.
3. Could have been the Blackstaff that did it. (Every time something illegal happened it was the black staff.   Yah that's it.)

Slightly?  TV canon is VERY different from the book reality, and the RPG is solidly based in the bookverse.  You'll have to do some creative interpretation to reconcile the TV canon with the RPG guide.

[Kristine]

TV canon is VERY different from the book reality, and the RPG is solidly based in the bookverse.

Yeah, I figured that, I just like the Bob from the show.  Although I don't remember anything official on who put Bob in the skull - I suppose the White Council could have handed him over to someone nasty enough to do that.  In the books they considered handing over Harry to the Red Court after all... Hmmm Harry would have made a hell of a red vampire if being one strips away all your ethics...