Limits of Evocation?

[Cadd]

Hi, now that the spellcaster of my game is getting ready to actually throw around some conscious magic (she's growing into power, only really finding out about it during play), her player and I have been thinking a bit about what kind of effects (narratively, the mechanics are perfectly clear) could be achieved with Evocation and what would belong among Thaumaturgy.

The character is meant to grow into a full wizard template, but the talent is kicking of with Biomancy. So her current spellcrafting powers are:
Ritual (Biomancy)
Channeling (Water) - Our thinking here is that 1: Her powers are supposed to grow and expand when upgrading to Evocation & Thaumaturgy, not change, so we went with one of the standard elements; and 2: Water feels most closely linked to biological life. This connection is partially inspired by the "Bloodbending" of Avatar: The Last Airbender. We're also loosely thinking about the concept of the Humours with this connection, though there's a lot for me to read up on there.

First - would you agree that the selection of Water as Channeling-element for a Biomancer-growing-toward-wizard?
Second - what would you say of these effects:

• Effects similar to tear gas by causing mucus membranes in the eyes, nose and mouth to overproduce? (Maneuver: Aspect "Tear gas" or similar on the target)
• Choking/suffocation from water in the lungs, exuded blood & mucus? (Attack)

Or would these be too complex for Evocation? I'm still really on the fence. I really like them, but the might very well need Biomancy Evothaum.

[Haru]

I think you can easily go with channeling(biomancy) for now, and go with evocation (water, earth, spirit), once you upgrade. Just take the elements you think best resemble the kind of channeling your character has.

OR you can go with biomancy themed evocation. Split biomancy up into 4-5 themes and treat it like evocation. That's more "powerful focused practitioner" rather than full wizard, but I thought I'd still mention it.

The spell effects both look like they are well within the range of a biomancer/aquamancer, I'd be ok with them just as they are. Just as long as they behave like evocation aspects and attacks. Just because you attack someone successfully by making his lung blow up, that doesn't mean he is now suffocating, it just means he's been attacked and takes stress. If the target is supposed to die of suffocation, that would be a taken out result.

[Dr.FunLove]

#Effects
I think those spells would work fine as Evocation. If you wanted them to stick around for more than just the scene/contest then you'd have to use Thaumaturgy.

#Water and Healing Magic/Biomancy
I find this to be a typical trope in metaphysical systems in Fantasy. It's perfectly fine. Doesn't mean you couldn't do the same thing with Fire or Earth or Air or Spirit.

I do think that ones overall style of magic should be infulenced by the values that they place on their selection of Elements and Thaumaturlogical skills. A theme, if you will. So far it sounds like your Water mage is evolving nicely.

EDIT:
Also, what Haru said. Tricky thing in DFRPG (because of Aspects and Consequences etc) is mirroring the mechanics in the narrative and vice versa. Big fun!

[narphoenix]

The character in question reminds me of one of mine. He specializes in water magic the same way: manipulating plants, tissues, etc. He's "Daniel Thresh" from my sig, if you care to read about him.

Also, word to the wise: the character need Scholarship to justify being able to do those sorts of things. Biomancy in DF requires medical knowledge. 

[Dr.FunLove]

I always found that to be...yea. Illusionists don't need a degree in psychology. Mind-benders aren't neurospecialist. And while I am sure more mundane knowledge is helpful, I just don't buy it as a needed justification.

It's Magic! is enough justification for me. I think the primarily example of that from the cannon is Listens-to-the-Wind but he's actually...you know...a doctor and a medicine man. His mundane and magical knowledge, in my interpretation and opinion, should compliment each other not be a justification for each other.

Glad you brought that up narphoenix!

[narphoenix]

Actually, Dr., I believe it's explicitly stated that you do need some form of mundane medical knowledge for supernatural healing (having Sponsored Magic, like Seelie Magic, can alleviate this). Not only that, but think about how messed up mind bending magic can get: it can induce delirium if someone doesn't know what they're doing. Think of Molly and Rosie/Nelson. And /her/ magic was specified to be skilled and subtle.

[Amelia Crane]

I actually think this would be an interesting opportunity to use alternate elements as per the sidebar on page 253.  Maybe you cast evocations based on the four humors: black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood (and maybe throw spirit back in there).  The humors should probably be able to affect more than just bodies, but you could expand the ideas.

[Cadd]

Wow that was fast 

Huge thanks guys! I was hoping the effects would be ok, but needed a second opinion before actually committing to allow it.

As for Scholarship - yes the character has it, specifically from having studied massage therapy (which actually gives a surprising amount of knowledge about not just musculature but the skeleton, circulatory system and nerve paths aswell) and having grown up with a mother who's an orthopedic specialist. (Basically part of the background to make Biomancy the spearhead of her magical talent).

I will however not require quite the medical know-how YS implies is necessary, I guess I'm more along Dr.FunLoves line. Of course, the more actual medical knowledge the practitioner has, the less gruesome anything that goes wrong with the casting will be

The idea of using the humors as element was really interesting, and definitely merits some experimentation! I would definitely not have come up with that idea myself!

[Dr.FunLove]

@Nar
It is, but I don't agree with it was essentially my point.

[narphoenix]

@Nar
It is, but I don't agree with it was essentially my point.

I happen to agree with it whole heartedly–although I will say it doesn't adversely affect me. Thresh's Scholarship hits Superb, so I don't have problems with it.

[Dr.FunLove]

It's not the mechanical implications that I am against as much as the narrative ones. It's not something I would enforce in my game. But it's not going to make me march on the GM in protest if its in other people's game.

It's just silly. If anything, I'd allow a mundane skill to modify on the spell or call for the clever use of Aspects. I wouldn't say you COULDN'T use magic to heal someone just because you aren't an experienced ER doctor or some such.

[narphoenix]

It's not the mechanical implications that I am against as much as the narrative ones. It's not something I would enforce in my game. But it's not going to make me march on the GM in protest if its in other people's game.

It's just silly. If anything, I'd allow a mundane skill to modify on the spell or call for the clever use of Aspects. I wouldn't say you COULDN'T use magic to heal someone just because you aren't an experienced ER doctor or some such.

Oh! I see. I think we're on the same page, to an extent. You don't have to formally be a doctor to biomancy in my book, but if you don't have some way to know what the frack you're doing to your patients, I'll start bringing out the Lawbreakers.

[UmbraLux]

First - would you agree that the selection of Water as Channeling-element for a Biomancer-growing-toward-wizard?

Sure.  You can make an argument for any of the Grecian elements fitting once you start digging into each element's purported mystical attributes.  But Water is often closely related to healing.

Second - what would you say of these effects:

• Effects similar to tear gas by causing mucus membranes in the eyes, nose and mouth to overproduce? (Maneuver: Aspect "Tear gas" or similar on the target)
• Choking/suffocation from water in the lungs, exuded blood & mucus? (Attack)

Those can work. 

Or would these be too complex for Evocation? I'm still really on the fence. I really like them, but the might very well need Biomancy Evothaum.

It's all in how you describe it.  "Infusing the flesh with excess water." is simple evocation.  "Combining appropriate molecules to create tear gas." is complex, should require a knowledge of chemistry, and is probably thaumaturgy.  But both may well have the same result of difficulty seeing and breathing. 

---
Regarding magical healing, I tend towards the following:  Any kind of instant healing needs some amount of medical knowledge* however anyone can enhance a body's natural healing ability. 

*The medical knowledge doesn't have to be the caster's.  A victim could get a broken arm set and splinted at the hospital before having a mage speed the healing.  You just don't want to speed the healing before having the arm set unless you have the medical knowledge to ensure it heals correctly. 

[Tedronai]

If you're using the standard element system, well, it really depends what you're trying to 'heal'.
Fire purifies, but won't be nearly as much help when dealing with that broken wrist.
Earth abides (again, useful when dealing with infections and the like), but once broken tends to remain so (again, less helpful with injury).
Air quickens.  Whatever the sickness or injury, it might be made to run its course faster, whatever that course might be (best hope the patient was going to pull through on their own in the first place if this is your sole recourse).
Spirit is the stuff of Will made manifest; it'll help with just about anything, but likely is not the best at any of it.

[cold_breaker]

I'd personally say that effecting someone elses body like that might be too fine for Evocation, but that's just me. Then again, having rotes that use her own body as fuel for a weapon could be a lot cooler narratively: using your own blood as a whip, or converting your top layer of skin into an acid that dissolves all forign bodies could be kinda cool and make for both offensive and defensive weapons. Sounds like a cool idea for a mean character. A walking biological weapon.

As for the scholarship thing: could I make a suggestion? If you're not going to require it, push the player to have to do a thaumaturgy spell to diagnose someone - e.g. she has a ritual to 'get in tune' with someone elses body (not meant to be dirty) to figure out whats wrong. This could be a good plot point - she can investigate bodies and what happened to them this way and get clues. I could probably come up with some interesting plots based on biological factors this way - makes for some interesting ideas.