Changelings and Seelie/Unseelie magic?

[Colette]

I was making a changeling (half-fae) character and I noticed that Seelie/Unseelie magic was on the default list of powers a changeling could inherit from their fae parent. Presumably, it would come from having a sidhe mother or father with Seelie/Unseelie magic themselves.

However, Seelie/Unseelie magic say:
"Cost: 4 refresh for the package, not to mention approval from one of the greater powers of the Summer Court, such as Queen Titania or Mother Summer."
"Cost: 4 refresh for the package, not to mention approval from one of the greater powers of the Winter Court, such as Queen Mab or Mother Winter."

How does a changeling inherit Seelie/Unseelie magic if it has to go through an approval process? Does the fae parent have to petition for imbuing their child with Seelie/Unseelie magic? Can they petition themselves? Can they inherit the magic without going through approval, at the cost of being on a leash held by Summer/Winter, without ever having asked for it?

What does "wildness" mean from a context of Seelie/Unseelie magic anyway? It is listed down as one of the domains of both. Is it "wildness" as in you can wield general magic of the primal force of nature and plant life? Is it "wildness" as in you can force stormy, uninhibited emotions on people?

Does having Seelie/Unseelie magic cause a changeling to hex technology? Fix the Summer Knight seems just fine around technology even when heavily imbued by Seelie magic, and Fix is a mortal, not a half-mortal like a changeling.

Regardless of how disgruntled the White Council might be, can Seelie/Unseelie magic ever cause a changeling to break the Laws of Magic and take Lawbreaker stunts? Page 236 of Your Story says, "Technically, the Laws of Magic only apply to mortal spellcasters. I haven’t seen either of the Sidhe Knights at the meetings or ice cream socials."

[dplanken]

One part at least I can give an answer to. (Un)Seelie magic does not hex technology. It would be different if you have your own magic AND (Un)Seelie magic, but if you have just (Un)Seelie magic, it doesn't hex.

And when it comes to a changeling inheriting fey magic, I would just keep it simple. They have it, or don't have it. And why you'll never know, the ways of the Queens are mysterious. Using the magic and/or having access to it will bring them closer to the choice, which alone could be the reason why they have access to it. To tempt them.

If the changeling doesn't want a faerie court to have any influence/power over them, they should make the choice to be fully human. Because being a changeling by default will get you tangoing with the Faeries, (Un)Seelie magic or not.

[Joelok314]

I would say that they are not subject to the laws of magic as they deal with mortal magic. While a mortal may be wielding it, the magic comes from the faerie court. If they attacked a changeling for breaking the laws of magic without just cause, the white council would run the risk of angering one or more of the courts and that is something they do NOT want to do.

[Wolfhound]

Your table/GM may have a different take, but in our game we roll with this from page 228

When it comes down to it, magic is a powerful force that can be directed like a laser in the hands of an unconflicted being. Creatures from the Nevernever usually fit this bill. Their nature and their will are in unity—in other words, they don’t have a “free will” or consciousness that’s separate from their nature.

So long as a Player's Character retains "free will" (unspent Refresh and in the hands of a PC and not an NPC character) then no matter the source of the spellcasting, it hexes tech. So a Changeling with Sponsored Spellcasting still hexes, but once they make "the choice" and go fully fae, then they no longer do so.

We did this because we observed that, prior to this, we had a lot more Sponsored character concepts and very few full on Wizards. Again, your table/group may be different.

[ReaderAt2046]

I would say that the "approval" to use Seelie or Unseelie magic is implicitly granted by the fact of being born a changeling of the right bloodline (reinforced by the fact that, per SK, changelings are considered to be part of the Fae parent's court, and under the authority of that Court's queen).

[Sanctaphrax]

I'd let you go without approval if you were a Changeling or something like that. As Kemmlerian Necromancy shows, Sponsored Magic works fine without a specific sponsor.

Does having Seelie/Unseelie magic cause a changeling to hex technology?

There's no right answer to this one.

Regardless of how disgruntled the White Council might be, can Seelie/Unseelie magic ever cause a changeling to break the Laws of Magic and take Lawbreaker stunts?

Again, there's no right answer. If you want to read a whole bunch of arguments about that, head over here.

What does "wildness" mean from a context of Seelie/Unseelie magic anyway? It is listed down as one of the domains of both. Is it "wildness" as in you can wield general magic of the primal force of nature and plant life? Is it "wildness" as in you can force stormy, uninhibited emotions on people?

I'd interpret it as a bit of each, personally.

[Amelia Crane]

I lean toward sponsored magic not hexing.  This quote from page 290:

This includes the ability to produce effects along the lines of biomancy ... with less of a requirement for biological expertise in the spellcaster—the powers of Summer already understand biology pretty well and will do the heavy lifting for the caster...

seems to indicate that the changeling just channels the powers of the court, so it's not using the mortal's nonabsolute will.  Although it still uses the changeling's Conviction, so that's not a conclusive argument.

[vultur]

I lean toward sponsored magic not hexing.  This quote from page 290:seems to indicate that the changeling just channels the powers of the court, so it's not using the mortal's nonabsolute will.  Although it still uses the changeling's Conviction, so that's not a conclusive argument.

I think it's inherently ambiguous, not just left out of the RPG books. When Harry became Winter Knight, he seemingly "automatically" gained knowledge of ice spells - they just came naturally to him - but he still cast them like regular magic, using his own willpower... but it does seem like "Winter" is more than just a source of undifferentiated raw power, it "does stuff for him" to some extent, otherwise he would have had to learn how to use the ice stuff.

[cold_breaker]

I lean toward sponsored magic not hexing.  This quote from page 290:seems to indicate that the changeling just channels the powers of the court, so it's not using the mortal's nonabsolute will.  Although it still uses the changeling's Conviction, so that's not a conclusive argument.

I agree. My understanding of sponsered magic is that you're quite literally getting a more powerful entity to cast for you - your emotions do not enter the equation because, whether she's concious of it or not, Queen Mab (or the winter or summer court, or however you wish to personify the entire court) is the one casting.

Now, if the sponser does have emotions and mortal whims, this might change. I consider hexing an additional evothium for mortal casters - one that is just as much a boon as it is a curse.

[Wolfhound]

Just a different point of view

So Sponsored vs Sorcerer (Evocation/Channeling/Thaumaturgy/Ritual)

a) Sponsored gains a reserve of Fate Points independent of the Spellcaster's own Fate Point pool
b) Sponsored costs less than full Thaumaturgy plus Evocation
c) Sponsored is able to do both Evocation and Thaumaturgy within a thematic subset (which, after 2+ years of playing this game regularly... rarely hinders even a somewhat slightly creative player from doing whatever magical effect they wish... though admittedly from time to time they've been completely unable to creatively shoehorn their desired effect into a thematic/sponsored element... it does happen, just rare)
d) Sponsored gains a free boost effect of some kind (reduce Winter/Summer catch or whatever)
e) Sponsored still gains Focus Items / Enchanted items
f) Sponsored can still take Refinements*

...and... all you lose is Specializations (yes, Specializations are sweet... but still having Focus/Enchanted Items mitigates the loss)

... and if your table decides a PC controlled caster doesn't hex either... you don't even have to worry about the in-game ramifications of hexing your favorite toys and widgets.  Woohoo! Fireballs AND iPhones!

Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me - both fluffwise and crunchwise.

Just something to consider. I'm not saying it's "wrong" to say Sponsored doesn't hex, far from it. Each table must choose for themselves.

With the above list, I'm just saying do consider the other side of the argument when your table makes the call. The rules support EITHER position, but I am just positing that there *is* some game mechanical merit in saying "PCs must deal with Hexing" (as a GM, leaving your NPCs free to have "fireballs and iphones")

... final point, fluffwise and campaign wise, I also posit that having "PCs Hex" is yet another reason for the PC Changeling to "Make the Choice" to become a Full Fae. To bring his/her will and Fae Nature in harmony (again referencing something the game designers put in on pg. 288) and finally be able to cast earth shattering magic and use all the gadgets of modernity again. If you choose to give that up, you lose another element of internal conflict on those Changeling character concepts. ... and really, it's a better story if "the Choice" is actually a hard one.

*Note - Officially Refinements are mentioned as only possibly taken once per spell ability - pg. 81 - the Russell Carson NPC in the core rulebook shows that even the game designers broke these "rules" (the NPC stays under the White Council's Radar, thus not white Council trained fluffwise and has Channeling and Thaumaturgy and 3 Refinements which breaks the 1 per spell ability "rule" crunchwise as otherwise he'd only have 2).

[cold_breaker]

Just a different point of view

So Sponsored vs Sorcerer (Evocation/Channeling/Thaumaturgy/Ritual)

a) Sponsored gains a reserve of Fate Points independent of the Spellcaster's own Fate Point pool
b) Sponsored costs less than full Thaumaturgy plus Evocation
c) Sponsored is able to do both Evocation and Thaumaturgy within a thematic subset (which, after 2+ years of playing this game regularly... rarely hinders even a somewhat slightly creative player from doing whatever magical effect they wish... though admittedly from time to time they've been completely unable to creatively shoehorn their desired effect into a thematic/sponsored element... it does happen, just rare)
d) Sponsored gains a free boost effect of some kind (reduce Winter/Summer catch or whatever)
e) Sponsored still gains Focus Items / Enchanted items
f) Sponsored can still take Refinements*

You're missing 2 big disadvantages:

1) The power that grants these abilities must approve it - e.g. the GM. Personally, I'd also say that they can revoke these powers at any time. Piss off the Winter court? Oh look, your magic is gone right when you need it.
2) Casting a spell requires taking on sponser debt - in other words, the GM gets to screw you! Repeatedly! For each spell! Being in debt to a sponser should be a bad thing.

Taking on sponsered magic is a short cut - short cuts have down sides. Think of it like buying a forklift instead of pumping iron to lift heavy things. Yeah, it's easier, but it can always be taken away, and requires a bit more flexing to figure out how to move some things.

[Cadd]

2) Casting a spell requires taking on sponser debt - in other words, the GM gets to screw you! Repeatedly! For each spell! Being in debt to a sponser should be a bad thing.

I don't see anything in the rules saying you have to take sponsor debt for every single spell. They say you can invoke an aspect for "free" each roll, increasing the debt, but that is a choice each time. Am I missing something?

Edit: Of course, after typing this, I notice a passage mentioning "1 point of Sponsor Debt per spell". It's in the sidebar about Temporary Access though, and seems pretty clear to only apply to just that.

[GryMor]

I don't see anything in the rules saying you have to take sponsor debt for every single spell. They say you can invoke an aspect for "free" each roll, increasing the debt, but that is a choice each time. Am I missing something?

You are not missing anything.

[Sanctaphrax]

You don't need to take a point of debt for every spell you cast.

And yes, Sponsored Magic is a pretty good deal. But whether or not if hexes doesn't really affect how good a deal it is, mechanically speaking. Compels are not bad, etc.

PS: I think the ability to take debt is best treated as a 0-cost narrative thing. Anyone can do it at any time, if they have a good excuse. And if you have Sponsored Magic, you probably have an excuse.

[Wolfhound]

1) The power that grants these abilities must approve it - e.g. the GM. Personally, I'd also say that they can revoke these powers at any time. Piss off the Winter court? Oh look, your magic is gone right when you need it.
2) Casting a spell requires taking on sponser debt - in other words, the GM gets to screw you! Repeatedly! For each spell! Being in debt to a sponser should be a bad thing.

Dunno if I'd consider #1 a "big" disadvantage.

First, my players tend to stick to their character concepts, thus they rarely wildly stray from the goals/etc. of their Sponsored source (that's why they pick a compatible Sponsor). Plus perhaps you prefer a more hands on interpretation than we do. The rules indicate *taking* Sponsored requires approval. However, I highly highly doubt the intent was to say that the Sponsor has direct and micromanaging approval over each use of power (there's a lot of Fae after all).

By analogy... Mab gives you the keys to one of many company cars, yes. But you drive it around as needed. Now if it gets back to Mab that you're jacking up the car or misusing it... yeah she takes away the keys again... but she's got better things to do than follow you around all day.

Others covered #2

PS: I think the ability to take debt is best treated as a 0-cost narrative thing. Anyone can do it at any time, if they have a good excuse. And if you have Sponsored Magic, you probably have an excuse.

Absolutely. We basically did exactly this in our games. Sponsored and Catches can be attached as a control for any powers, not just Magic, so long as it's thematic.

Example: "Samson"

(0) Sponsored: God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
~ (+1) Catch: Nazirite (can't cut hair/shave, no booze/no grape products, no becoming impure with/touching corpses)
~~ (-6) Mythic Strength

Edited: to fix formatting issue/one typo