Multiple Main Actions

[Dr.FunLove]

Quick question for the community - multiple main actions in an Exchange: have you used them/allowed them? How do you adjudicate them? Any references etc are appreciated!

[Sanctaphrax]

Linkity link link.

I'm using Supernatural Martial Arts, including the Flurry technique, in a game right now. Haven't seen it used much, though, so I can't use my game as proof of its balance.

[Dr.FunLove]

Thank you Sancta!

I took a quick glance at the links (I want to really get into the link to the Testing Multiple Actions when I can). I think it is fair to say that the designers hadn't considered/wanted Multiple Main Actions or else there would have been a bit more on it. I was personally surprised that MMA wasn't tied to, say, Speed Powers (for balance I am sure as it would certainly make Speed favored first).

In my consideration of MMA, I had thought of simply handling the additionals like supplmental's (-1 per additional main action). Has anyone found their to be much resistance to the idea around your tables/in-group? Thoughts, experiences, divine words?

[Cadd]

Spontaneusly, I would not tie multi-acting to Speed powers, as it would feel uncomfortably close to the oWOD problems with multi-actions. Basically, if you didn't have it and went up against something that did, you were toast. And even worse - combat bogged down even more than usual so it was boring aswell.

I could imagine multi-acting with very heavy limitations, most likely along the line of "perform this same action several times" in some situations, but I'd be very careful...

However, I can guarantee that there are people with a lot more experience, both in general and with FATE in particular, that can give more balanced answers

[Dr.FunLove]

@Cadd
That's a great point about the original Celerity in cWOD. I am sure that's one thing the developers saw, hence why the two concepts (Speed Powers and MMA) are seperate. I think DFRPG has a great mechanism for homebrewing a power that does that however.

Thanks for your thoughts on it!

[Sanctaphrax]

In my consideration of MMA, I had thought of simply handling the additionals like supplmental's (-1 per additional main action).

How would that work exactly?

Are you saying "you can take X actions per turn, each action takes an (X-1) shift penalty"?

Because that sounds a fair bit like what I did with the Flurry technique for Supernatural Martial Arts. Except I made the penalty X shifts, restricted it to attacks, and charged 4 mental stress for the chance to do it once.

Which summarizes my opinion pretty well...I think you're on a good track but a bit too generous.

[Dr.FunLove]

@Sancta
I can agree with the generosity part as shifts are cheap as things progress. So what else do we have. -2 per additional main action? A cap on # of additional actions? A little of both?

[Tedronai]

If you're trying to represent multiple attacks, try using the spray rules.  It's what they're there for.  Give a bonus if you feel its necessary (and cost-appropriate).

[Sanctaphrax]

I'd rather not just use the spray rules for attacks. They don't scale terribly well.

Splitting one Fair attack into two Average attacks is a good deal. Splitting one Legendary attack into two Great attacks is not so good.

I think they'd work pretty well for maneuvers, though. FunLove's idea could get brutal with those...with a default difficulty of Good to create a taggable Aspect, someone with a Superb skill could create 3 tags/round with +0 rolls.

My best shot at multiple actions is the Flurry Technique.

Maybe a -2 power that lets you attack and block as though using Flurry constantly while letting you perform maneuvers and movement rolls using the spray rules could work.

[Tedronai]

A (comparatively small or comparatively expensive) bonus on the post-split accuracy goes a long way to alleviating spray attacks' scaling issues.

[Dr.FunLove]

@Sancta
So you prefer a scaling penalty based on the number of actions on all the actions?

I believe it should, but I assume you would both agree that MMA should be the realm of Stunts/Powers yes? Similar sorts of adjustments are already in the RAW are reperesented as Stunts such as Off-Hand Weapon Training and Wall of Death. Spray attacks seems to be worth -1 Refresh, but I'd imagine MMA would be worth a bit more. Are we looking at a -2 or -3 Refresh Stunt/Power?

[Cadd]

Most definitely yes. Even as a stunt I'd keep it heavily restricted, like allowing a single additional attack or maneuver, toward the same target, at a penalty, and only with a specific weapon or something like that.

Anything less restricted would be powers, and probably restricted in other ways. There is definitely a case to be made for some kind of multiple spellcastings for someone ridiculously powerful (see Ivy at the Shedd in SmF), so I could imagine something allowing mental multitasking as one power, and physical as another.

Either way, they would all have pretty high narrative requirements - why the heck can your character do this? (As with Ivy above - She's the frikkin Archive, that's why )

[Again, I'm new to FATE, I'm going by what seems like sense for me, aswell as what I feel have a basis in the fiction. Actual balance-related stuff is a lot more shaky]

[Haru]

I would probably count multiple actions for one individual as being roughly equal with multiple characters acting in concert. So instead of 2 normally fast opponents, you get one opponent so fast, that he can act twice. It's sort of an application of the fractal, each of his arms is his own character, sort of.

For a player, I would not allow it as a blanket power, unless every player can have 2 characters/actions. If you give everyone 2 actions, that wouldn't be that much different from how it is done now.

I could, however, see a stunt where the character would be allowed, once per scene, to take his next exchange action right now, so he can act twice in one exchange, but not at all in the next. Great for finishing blows, but not too overpowered.

[Tedronai]

Most definitely yes. Even as a stunt I'd keep it heavily restricted, like allowing a single additional attack or maneuver, toward the same target, at a penalty, and only with a specific weapon or something like that.

Off-hand weapon training is meant PRECISELY to represent multiple attacks against a single target.  Compare its effects for something close to reasonable balance (it's a finicky stunt that could use some tweaking to solidify its position, but it's more readily balanced than multiple actions).

Either way, they would all have pretty high narrative requirements - why the heck can your character do this? (As with Ivy above - She's the frikkin Archive, that's why )

Narrative restrictions are no substitute for mechanical balance.  CALLING a character powerful should not be sufficient to make them so.  They should have sufficient mechanical currency to back up that claim, and, if they do not, then they should not be able to act as though it were true (except in the sense of a bluff).

[Sanctaphrax]

@Sancta
So you prefer a scaling penalty based on the number of actions on all the actions?

I believe it should, but I assume you would both agree that MMA should be the realm of Stunts/Powers yes? Similar sorts of adjustments are already in the RAW are reperesented as Stunts such as Off-Hand Weapon Training and Wall of Death. Spray attacks seems to be worth -1 Refresh, but I'd imagine MMA would be worth a bit more. Are we looking at a -2 or -3 Refresh Stunt/Power?

With the rule system as it is now, multiple actions would have to be a Stunt or Power. I think a houserule that makes spray actions/multiple actions freely available to everyone has potential as an idea, though.

The cost would depend on how the Power actually works. Flurry costs like 1/3 of a Refresh point, but it's really limited.

And yes, I think a scaling penalty is a good idea.

A (comparatively small or comparatively expensive) bonus on the post-split accuracy goes a long way to alleviating spray attacks' scaling issues.

True enough. It's not a perfect solution though.