Thaumaturgic blocks

[Taran]

O.k...I want to put a block against movement on an opponent with evocation.  Say I use earth magic and mire him in the ground...cool.  I do 6 shifts of power, control the spell and done. Easy. the spell lasts one exchange.

Say I want to do the same thing with thaumaturgy.  I have a link to the same guy, I put 12 shifts of power into the block and then I put more shifts in to make it last a human life-time.

Now the guy is mired to the ground for the rest of his life until he manages to beat the block (using athletics or might or even craftsmanship to hammer his way out).  THen the spell dissipates.  Right?  Is this legal?

[Sanctaphrax]

Sounds fine to me.

Guy will probably get free in a few hours, though, since friends can do maneuvers to help him escape and he can take extra time to boost his escape attempt.

[Dr.FunLove]

...and if he has no friends or if you've, say, locked him in another dimension well...sucks to be that guy!

[Taran]

Sounds fine to me.

Guy will probably get free in a few hours, though, since friends can do maneuvers to help him escape and he can take extra time to boost his escape attempt.

Thaumatugic block question part 2

I make a divination spell that warns me of danger a few seconds in advance.  It kind of works like spidey sense.  It's modelled as a block against attacks.

12 shifts and lasts 1 year.  Legal?

[Cadd]

I'd model it as a block against surprise attacks, so when the slugging has started it's not helping anymore.

[Taran]

I guess what I'm asking is if thaumaturgy can do regular blocks with long durations.

If so, it seems to me most wizards would have one or more of these semi-permanent defences up.

Like using psychomancy to put up a mental wall against mental intrusions/attacks, which would just be a block against attacks.

How powerful a thaumaturgic block would you permit a starting character(in total shifts) and how many of these defences?

What about Npc's?

[Quantus]

Im not as conversant with the Thaumaturgical rules as I should be.  Whats it say about getting a spell to last through that many sunrises?  In the stories it would take quite a bit to make any defense or curse last that long, without binding it to a specific bloodline. 

[Taran]

By default 1 scene.

Then add shifts for each step up the time chart.  1year is like 5-7 extra shifts, I think.

[Haru]

I'd call shenanigans. For one, that's more like a permanent power, and it should be bought like that. We had a similar discussion a short while back.

Second, remember what is said about wards time and time again in the novels. They need something to be built upon, preferably a threshold. The stronger the threshold you have to work with, the more you can attach to it. But what are you going to attach this personal shield to? Your ward at home? Ok, the ward stays at home. It is a cool description of how it works, but it stays there. Put it on a bracelet? Wait, there is a rule for that: enchanted items.

So no, I would not say it is legal. And even if the argument can be made, that it is by the book, I would still not allow this in any game I ran. You either handwave all the preparation steps, in which case it is highly overpowered, or you play a few sessions about the character getting his "I'm invincible" shield on, which does not really seem to me like an interesting thing to do, and even if it is, it should be reflected as a power of some sort or another. If it is something special, like a heat shield because he needs to get to the ground of a live volcano, that's a different story.

[Tedronai]

Essentially-permanent (eg. lifetime defensive blocks) effects should be paid for with essentially-permanent resources (eg. refresh and/or skill pts).

As for the offensive version of the same concept, that sounds more like a taken-out result ("can't move for the next decade" sounds like they're no longer in the conflict, to me) than a temporary impediment.

[Dr.FunLove]

I'm confused by the position that, something that is essentially transitory despite the duration (like a Thaumaturgy block), should be paid with by Refresh when a wizard has paid Refresh for Thaumaturgy. Disallowing a concept because of a GM's sense of balance is one thing, but saying to a wizard player "you can't do a thing within your bought Powers without buying more Powers" is...? How is that justified?

[Taran]

Essentially-permanent (eg. lifetime defensive blocks) effects should be paid for with essentially-permanent resources (eg. refresh and/or skill pts).

As for the offensive version of the same concept, that sounds more like a taken-out result ("can't move for the next decade" sounds like they're no longer in the conflict, to me) than a temporary impediment.

It's not a taken out result.  The duration is one decade, but he might escape in a few hours.

I'm having a hard time trying to adjudicate this kind of thing.

[Dr.FunLove]

@Taran
Despite the duration, said character can still penetrate the block with appropriate skills/rolls. If a wizard wanted to,say, turn someone to stone, that would utilize Aspects/Consequences. Depends on how much power said wizard can bring together which way they'd go in such a scenario.

[Quantus]

To me there are two issues with it.  The first is consistency with the setting, as described in the novels (and this blatantly violates the magical mechanics as written) but that may or may not be a huge concern at your table.  The second is game balance, and to me the issue is that the duration is so ridiculously long that it starts stepping on the toes of other mechanics that are already in place.  Personally I blame that on the Time Chart mechanic, near as I can tell, since it is very clear in the novels that no spell can withstand more than a few sunrises without being anchored to either a threshold or a bloodline.   

And to your specific point, it really is not "transitory" within the context of any game I can imagine running, unless you plan to have losts of time-jumps or NN slides that would make a 1 Year thing relevant.  The offensive earth binding, at that point, is basically a lasting Curse.  The perception defense is described is actually exactly like an enchanted item that appears in the novels, and even those are not technically "Permanent" in the way that full on IoP's are.  But I dont think the argument being made was an all-or-nothing thing, it is just that when a loophole in Thaumaturgy starts bypassing the established requirements for a comparable effect, you should either make them pay a comparable cost to those other mechanic as written, or else place some sort of compensating requirement on it to maintain balance.  The other option is make the cost something that has to be maintained, so that the caster's capabilities are permanently reduced so long as the effect is in place.  Then the primary benefit is not that you are getting a "semi-permanent" spell without paying any of the normal more lasting fees for such a thing, you are just juicing your spell with extra shifts so that you do not have to repeat the casting each scene, but since there is power sacrifice to it that lasts as long as you maintain the defense, there is still a reason for the character to choose to end the spell and eliminate the continuous drain on his or her resources. 

[Dr.FunLove]

@Quantus
Interesting point about the Time Chart mechanic. That really is just a mechanical representation of narration though right? In most cases where a spell is really long last there is going to be a reason given by a GM/player justifying it right?

A block can still be dissipated, reduced to nothing. The duration just allows it to exist until such an event occurs. I'm not sure how a spell like that would warrant more explanation than Thaumaturgy plus a narrative justification other than because of a GM's own personal balancing preferences. Especially when talking about costing Refresh.