Newbies ask the darnest things

[Troy]

Yes. Thank you.

[Troy]

Is there a reason why the rules for doing a Grapple are different from all the other rules involving Maneuvers and Blocks? Would it disrupt things to make it work like everything else?

[Taran]

I don't feel grapples deviate much from regular rules.

Blocks end when it makes sense for them to end(except for spellcasting).  The same goes with grapples.  It also makes sense to have a rule-set to prevent people from sprinting or moving zones.  They're pretty basic compared to grapple rules I've seen in other systems.

How would you do it?  Just make it a maneuver: "grappled"?

[Haru]

Well, grapples add a few things you wouldn't be able to do otherwise. You can inflict stress as a supplemental action, which means you can easily wear down someone, while they can do nothing against it, because they are blocked. And you can move them around, something that's not usually possible as well.

But you could take a lesson from Fate Core and introduce "active opposition". Instead of a block, you put up the aspect "grappled" (or something more descriptive) on the target, and then you can roll against any action the target is trying to attempt, as long as the aspect is in place. If you win the roll, the target can not act. Of course he can attempt to remove the aspect as his action, as well.
On the other hand, the grappled aspect can cut both ways, and the grappled could use it as justification to stop you from doing things as well, since you have to keep most of your focus on your target, unless you already took him out.

[Troy]

I don't feel grapples deviate much from regular rules.

Blocks end when it makes sense for them to end(except for spellcasting).  The same goes with grapples.  It also makes sense to have a rule-set to prevent people from sprinting or moving zones.  They're pretty basic compared to grapple rules I've seen in other systems.

How would you do it?  Just make it a maneuver: "grappled"?

I thought Blocks had to be maintained, too?

And I like doing things the Fate Core way, but it's hard to convince my compatriots.

[Taran]

They do, every exchange.  So I don't really see how a grapple is that much different.  The only difference is that the advantages and disadvantages of a grapple are maintained (such as not being able to sprint or move zones and the grappler being able to add aspects or do damage every exchange) each round unless the victim can break the block in a way that justifies breaking the grapple.

The person putting up the block still has to re-roll every exchange just like a regular block.

I haven't read Fate Core...so I can't really compare.

My biggest complaint about grapple rules is they are too simlistic.  I like the idea of both people in the grapple being able to hurt the other.  The way the rules are are a bit one sided.

[JDK002]

They do, every exchange.  So I don't really see how a grapple is that much different.  The only difference is that the advantages and disadvantages of a grapple are maintained (such as not being able to sprint or move zones and the grappler being able to add aspects or do damage every exchange) each round unless the victim can break the block in a way that justifies breaking the grapple.

The person putting up the block still has to re-roll every exchange just like a regular block.

I haven't read Fate Core...so I can't really compare.

My biggest complaint about grapple rules is they are too simlistic.  I like the idea of both people in the grapple being able to hurt the other.  The way the rules are are a bit one sided.

You could use the rules as is to make that possible I believe.  Instead of trying to break the grapple, the you could instead set up your own maneuver to initiate a grapple AGAINST the person holding you.  Thus kind of causing both characters to be in a grapple with each other.  This could cause an interesting tug of war of the characters dragging each other around, doing damage, or trying to break the others grapple before their own gets broken.  It would also mean neither could just release the grapple without being stuck in the others grapple.

[Taran]

Yeah, except you can't block a block...that's kind of the weird thing about it...

[Sanctaphrax]

Pretty sure you can block a block.

Is there a reason why the rules for doing a Grapple are different from all the other rules involving Maneuvers and Blocks? Would it disrupt things to make it work like everything else?

Making grapples work like everything else would mess with dedicated wrestler characters and people who have Strength Powers. Plus it'd remove the ability to force movement on an opponent, and the ability to gradually defeat them while blocking their actions.

So yes, it would disrupt things. Not hugely, though.

FWIW, I don't much like the Fate Core approach to blocks.

[Troy]

Is it because of the extra options a Grapple provides that you're required to Tag or Invoke an Aspect for "permission" to initiate one?

[Sanctaphrax]

It's probably the main reason. But I can't read the minds of the writers, so...well, you'd have to ask them for a proper answer.

[Troy]

Here's what we're thinking about doing when it comes to grappling. It deviates from the book but I'm not 100% confident that this sort of interpretation won't disrupt something I haven't foreseen yet.

(click to show/hide)

I would like to run a Grapple like this:

Colossus and Wolverine are in the thick of a training scenario in the Danger Room. The exercise sounded simple enough: capture the Wolverine and bring him back to base. After spending more than twelve hourse engaged in guerilla hand-to-hand combat with the clawed canuck, Colossus finally sees Logan starting to sweat, starting to tire. Indefatiguable, Colossus has no problem spending all night engaged in grueling rigorous combat and chases. Seeing his opportunity to strike, Colossus's player makes his move and rolls Physique to manuever against Wolverine. The roll is Fantastic (+6) and the Aspect Trapped In a Bear Hug[/i] is applied to Wolverine! Now if Wolverine wants to take any action beyond what is reasonable whilst Trapped In a Bear Hug he must score greater than Fantastic (+6) on his roll. Otherwise, he remains trapped and Colossus can carry him back to the base and reign victorious in this training scenario.


Something I think we should consider: With our grapple, would a player be able to do all the things you could do using the book's grapple?

Let me think of how I would adjudicate some things.

Inflicting Stress/Attacking While Grappled
Colossus gets a hold of Wolverine, placing the Trapped In a Bear Hug[/i] Aspect on him. The Russian decides he wants to choke Wolverine out or something. So, he rolls Physique to attack Wolverine and he can Invoke the Trapped In a Bear Hug[/i] for +2 on his roll. Wolverine can defend using Physique or Fight, or anything else the player might suggest that seems appropriate. This would represent the struggle and difficulty of trying to choke Wolverine out.

Moving Across Zones While Grappled[/u]
By the book, you roll Physique -1 and freely move one zone.
Our way, I think that the victim of the Grapple opposes the movement, right? So, you roll Physique to drag the person wherever you want and the victim tries to stop you by resisting (Physique or Fight?) or distraction (Deceit or Intimidation?) or by any other means that makes sense, right? If the attacker succeeds, you move one zone. If the defends succeeds you don't get to move at all. Hence, why choking someone out is an option.

Maneuvering[/u]
This one seems pretty straight forward.
By the book: roll Physique -1, if successful your Maneuver is applied.
Our way, I think the victim would oppose the Maneuver the same way as above. Whoever wins gets their way. This has the additional permutation that the victim can Maneuver against his attacker in the same way. Perhaps Wolverine wants to break the Grapple using Fight and he has special Stunts or Powers (involving his Adamantinium skeleton/claws) that gives him a bonus to this roll to create Maneuvers. And Wolverine is able to remove the Trapped In a Bear Hug[/i] Aspect.

[Taran]

I might set it up as a mini-combat:

(click to show/hide)

Someone initiates a grapple by tagging an aspect.

Now both characters are subject to "grappling" which can be tagged/invoked by anyone in the combat.

- Neither can move/sprint etc...
- They both suffer a block against all actions (outside the grapple)equal to the other person's Might + Strength powers+ appropriate stunts.

Now they just fight each other.
Place maneuvers/do damage/try to escape/move the other into another zone etc...
- All rolls attack and defense/maneuver/movement are opposed by Might (depending on what people are trying to do)
- To escape you must use an appropriate skill (athletics/intimidate/Might etc..) opposed by the opponent, with a minimum difficulty equal to the auto-block for being in a grapple.

[Sanctaphrax]

I would like to run a Grapple like this:

Colossus and Wolverine are in the thick of a training scenario in the Danger Room. The exercise sounded simple enough: capture the Wolverine and bring him back to base. After spending more than twelve hourse engaged in guerilla hand-to-hand combat with the clawed canuck, Colossus finally sees Logan starting to sweat, starting to tire. Indefatiguable, Colossus has no problem spending all night engaged in grueling rigorous combat and chases. Seeing his opportunity to strike, Colossus's player makes his move and rolls Physique to manuever against Wolverine. The roll is Fantastic (+6) and the Aspect Trapped In a Bear Hug[/i] is applied to Wolverine! Now if Wolverine wants to take any action beyond what is reasonable whilst Trapped In a Bear Hug he must score greater than Fantastic (+6) on his roll. Otherwise, he remains trapped and Colossus can carry him back to the base and reign victorious in this training scenario.

Definitely not a good idea.

Normally blocks only last one round. You're letting this one last as long as the Aspect does, and throwing in a free tag as you do so. This combines the strengths of a DFRPG block with the strengths of a Fate Core "block" to create a single super-duper strong action.

You'd be a fool to make normal maneuvers, with this sort of option available.

Inflicting Stress/Attacking While Grappled
Colossus gets a hold of Wolverine, placing the Trapped In a Bear Hug[/i] Aspect on him. The Russian decides he wants to choke Wolverine out or something. So, he rolls Physique to attack Wolverine and he can Invoke the Trapped In a Bear Hug[/i] for +2 on his roll. Wolverine can defend using Physique or Fight, or anything else the player might suggest that seems appropriate. This would represent the struggle and difficulty of trying to choke Wolverine out.

I think this idea has potential.

Moving Across Zones While Grappled[/u]
By the book, you roll Physique -1 and freely move one zone.
Our way, I think that the victim of the Grapple opposes the movement, right? So, you roll Physique to drag the person wherever you want and the victim tries to stop you by resisting (Physique or Fight?) or distraction (Deceit or Intimidation?) or by any other means that makes sense, right? If the attacker succeeds, you move one zone. If the defends succeeds you don't get to move at all. Hence, why choking someone out is an option.

If I were you, and I wanted to remove the special rules for grappling, I'd create a general set of forced movement rules. Then grapplers could use them like everyone else.

Maneuvering[/u]
This one seems pretty straight forward.
By the book: roll Physique -1, if successful your Maneuver is applied.

Not quite.

By the book, the maneuver is applied automatically. Your roll need not succeed. Which is good, because your roll is a block roll, and blocks never succeed or fail.

But you can't start maneuvering until you've held someone for at least a turn, since you can't take a supplemental grapple action the turn you establish the grapple.

Someone initiates a grapple by tagging an aspect.

Does this take an action? If not, when can you do it?

Now both characters are subject to "grappling" which can be tagged/invoked by anyone in the combat.

Who gets the free tags?

Apart from those issues, I think this idea could work. Probably not better than what we have in canon, but probably not worse either.

[Taran]

Does this take an action? If not, when can you do it?

Who gets the free tags?

Apart from those issues, I think this idea could work. Probably not better than what we have in canon, but probably not worse either.

#taking an action initiating the grapple
Just like how it works currently: you just tag the aspect then perform the grapple/block.

The difference with this method is you can do more than just block (since that's done automatically), you can do a maneuver or attack etc...

Although, now I'm seeing how this method can be abused.  If you have a high Might+Supernatural STR, you could tag an aspect and set up an Epic block on a wizard without even having to roll dice.  Granted, this block doesn't impede/block the wizards ability to blast you...so maybe that's the balancing factor...dunno.

#Free tags:
Anyone NOT in the grapple, I'd think?  I'd be happy to do away with this, but I just figured there's lot of things that people outside the grapple could do to people who are stuck in a grapple.  I just figured it'd be easiest to model the "disadvantage" of being locked in a grapple is by using an aspect.