Author Topic: The science of gravity spells.  (Read 18589 times)

Offline knnn

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The science of gravity spells.
« on: May 31, 2013, 09:58:33 PM »
In "It's My Birthday, Too" Harry uses gravity magic to kill two Blampires.  The description in the text is as follows:

Quote
In technical terms, I didn’t actually increase the gravity of the earth beneath it. I only concentrated it a little. In a circle fifty yards across, for just a fraction of a second, gravity vanished. The cars all surged up against their shock absorbers and settled again. The thin coat of snow leapt several inches off the parking lot and fell back. In that same fraction of a second, all of that gravity from all of that area concentrated itself into a circle, maybe eighteen inches across, directly at the vampire’s feet.  There was no explosion, no flash of light—and no scream. The vampire just went down, slammed to the earth as suddenly and violently as if I’d dropped an anvil on him.

There are a number of points I'd like to make:


1) Note that the fact that the text is talking about circles in two dimensions seems to imply that Harry didn't "turn off" gravity in general, but "merely" concentrated the gravity coming from the center of the Earth.  Otherwise, the effect should have more spherical -- all the concentrated gravity would have turned the center of the blampire into a nice, dense ball of matter.  Similarly in the second example, there would have been no reason for the second floor to fall down (rather than up/in/ whatever).

----> We have established that Harry's spell is pretty likely earth-centric.

2) The description of what would happen if Earth's gravity vanished for a split-second is pretty much spot on.  Consider that we're on a rotating planet, and the thing that keeps us "anchored" is gravity.  If gravity stopped for a given object, it would continue in a straight line (modulo secondary gravitational effects like the sun) rather than curve around the earth.  Since the Earth is rotating at about 1/3 of a mile an hour (at the equator), if you let something go in a straight line instead of curving around the earth, it would appear to float upward (probably wobbly -- a whole bunch of secondary effects come into play) for nearly a minute (as the earth dropped away), and then move "west" in increasing speed.  Since Harry describes the process of the spell to take a "fraction of a second", the description appears to be spot on.

3) Power -- So how much gravity did the poor blampire experience?  Well, it's kinda hard to say since you can't really concentrate gravity in that way -- certainly not in a 2D form.  Still, let's assume that it works in the same way a magnifying glass works when you use it to light a fire. 

In a magnifying glass, all the energy of the light rays passing through the glass get concentrated at one point.  The effective temperature at that point is essentially determined by how much energy is being concentrated.  The better the lens (i.e. better parabola), the smaller the area in which the energy is concentrated and hence the hotter it gets.  Ditto for size -- make the lens ten times bigger and you get ten times the energy (think Tavi at the bridge).

Fortunately, Harry tells us the measurements:  he concentrates the gravity from a circle 50 yards across to a circle 18 inches across -- a ratio of 100:1.  Thing is, the number that counts is the area of those circles, something that goes as the ratio squared.  Thus, we get an energy ratio of 10000:1. 

Now the "energy" of gravity is pretty much linear in scale (GM/R is the Newtonian function that comes to mind),  so this gives us the whopping number of 10000G, or localized gravity 10,000 times what we normally feel on planet earth.


4) Effect:

So what does this feel like?  A LOT.  Just for comparison, did you know that gravity on the surface of the sun is only 28G (which makes the whole ending of the Green Lantern movie really stupid)?  10,000G is what you get on the surface of a neutron star. 

From wikipedia:

Quote
The neutron star's compactness gives it a surface gravity of up to 7×1012 m/s² with typical values of a few ×1012 m/s² (that is more than 1011 or makes the gravity roughly 10,240 times that of Earth). One measure of such immense gravity is the fact that neutron stars have an escape velocity of around 100,000 km/s, about a third of the speed of light.

No wonder the vampire got flattened.  With that kind of gravitational force, it's interesting that we didn't see all kinds of weird-science side effects.  Light that happened to pass through those 18 inches during the spell would have been distorted up the wazoo with Doppler effects that would have done cool things to it.  Air particles would have been smashed down causing a temporary vacuum that would have sucked outside air in, causing an implosion effect.  Under that kind of pressure, the air inside would actually solidify on the bottom of the cylinder of concentrated gravity.  Heck, the speed in which those air molecules would collide would resemble the inside of a Super-collider.  I'm surprised Harry didn't discover the Higgs Boson on the spot.


5) Scaling up:

Finally, consider what would happen if Harry had made the "zero gravity" circle just 10 times larger.  Going by the radius squared law, we'd get a 100-fold increase in gravity at the center which would easily take us into the black-hole range. 

(Note that the surface gravity of a black hole is very hard to measure because of a lack of a "surface".  You can use the Schwarzschild radius, but then you get the weird effect where the larger the black-hole is, the weaker amount of surface gravity it has.  Nevertheless 1,000,000G is very comfortably a black hole).


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Offline narphoenix

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2013, 10:35:08 PM »
You seem to be assuming that magic is 100% efficient. I would like to call to the witness stand the Second Law of Thermodynamics. :)

Granted, it's kind of difficult to measure the thermodynamics of magic, given that wizards not only draw energy from the environment in ways that are hard to tell–like dropping the temperature of an area of a square mile to fuel a fire spell, for instance.

In addition, of course Harry didn't discover the Higgs Boson. He has no way to observe it, except big time maybe through the Sight.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 11:24:50 PM by narphoenix »
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Offline Elegast

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2013, 10:38:08 PM »
Quote
3) Power -- So how much gravity did the poor blampire experience?  Well, it's kinda hard to say since you can't really concentrate gravity in that way -- certainly not in a 2D form.  Still, let's assume that it works in the same way a magnifying glass works when you use it to light a fire. 

In a magnifying glass, all the energy of the light rays passing through the glass get concentrated at one point.

That part never made any sense to me.

The situations are very different:

light is divided among its targets, not gravity (which is normal since light is a form of energy and gravity is a force). Gravity is not a limited ressource, I can put how many objects I want near the Earth, they'll get attracted just as strongly as the first one.

So what is the point of transferring gravity? Why not simply choose a bigger G constant in the area of effect?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 12:45:56 AM by Elegast »
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Offline narphoenix

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2013, 10:43:29 PM »
The text explicitly states that Harry concentrated the gravity, both in the story and later in Chichén Itzá.
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Offline Elegast

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2013, 10:51:22 PM »
The text explicitly states that Harry concentrated the gravity, both in the story and later in Chichén Itzá.

It does. That doesn't mean I understand how it works.
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Offline narphoenix

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2013, 11:13:44 PM »
Well. That's actually pretty simple. Magically, Harry thinks it should work that way, so it does.

Physically is a bit more complicated. But, not impossible under wave-particle duality. If you assume that Harry used his magic to, on a subatomic level, move the gravitons (the particle expression of the gravitational force) from those areas (probably not all of them, but most of them at least) and concentrated them, boom. Flat vamps.
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Offline Adak

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2013, 11:20:11 PM »
If you want to see some more crazy numbers figure the amount of Ice it would take to Float that building section in CD, then see how much power it would take to make that much ice.  The numbers become crazy if you assume free floating ice.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 11:22:33 PM by Adak »

Offline Elegast

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2013, 11:29:00 PM »
Physically is a bit more complicated. But, not impossible under wave-particle duality. If you assume that Harry used his magic to, on a subatomic level, move the gravitons (the particle expression of the gravitational force) from those areas (probably not all of them, but most of them at least) and concentrated them, boom. Flat vamps.


 Gravitons (if they exist...) are fermions bosons, they have energy. They carry the energy when gravity does work, that is when gravity accelerates something. The objets in the big circle weren't accelerated, so there was no transfer of energy, so there was no  graviton to move in the first place.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 12:44:51 AM by Elegast »
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Offline narphoenix

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2013, 11:33:05 PM »
Incorrect. Gravitons (if they exist...) are fermions, they have energy. They carry the energy when gravity does works, that is when gravity accelerates something. The objets in the big circle weren't accelerated, so there was no transfer of energy, so there was no  graviton to move in the first place.

There was absolutely acceleration. Things don't just fall into nearly two dimensions from three. There had to be a force to make it happen. Ergo, there was an acceleration.
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Offline Elegast

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2013, 11:36:56 PM »
There was absolutely acceleration. Things don't just fall into nearly two dimensions from three. There had to be a force to make it happen. Ergo, there was an acceleration.

There was no acceleration at the moment Harry used the spell, the cars and so on where immobile, so there was no stream of gravitons.
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Offline narphoenix

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2013, 11:40:46 PM »
There was no acceleration at the moment Harry used the spell, the cars and so on where immobile, so there was no stream of gravitons.

In Changes, Harry specifically mentions everyone floating up outside the target circle. Not as much as the things moving down in the inner circle, but then, Harry is drawing on fewer gravitons per unit area then he is concentrating them in the same.
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Offline Ms Duck

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2013, 11:54:40 PM »
sorry Knnn but it can't be affecting gravity, realy. what I think his spell does is borrow weight (the force of gravity) on objects in an area and concentrate it.

why can't it be what you suggest?

well, he's still there. :D

Gravity is a field.. you 'cancel' it somehow and it 'cancels' for everything.. including the several kilometers of air above the point. Which would have exploded outwards, then gotten drawn back in by your 'mini black hole'.. Im too tired to do the math, but as a WAGstimate I'd put the resulting force well into the atomic bomb category. (the initial explosion would have been more than 1 metric ton per square cm of area changed)(the secondary implosion would have been much, much worse)

Frankly, the whole city should have been redecorated..

I'd estimate it more like conservation of energy, he 'borrows' force from the objects around then concentrates it; what the vampire got hit with was the weight of several cars; not several cars, and several trillion tons of air.

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Offline peregrine

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2013, 11:58:21 PM »
Where are you getting the 1Mg/cm^2 figure from?  Air pressure on earth is about 1Kg/cm^2.

Offline narphoenix

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2013, 12:01:18 AM »
M and K are close on the keyboard, I think.
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Offline Tami Seven

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Re: The science of gravity spells.
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2013, 12:16:18 AM »
Someone should write a book on the Physics of the Dresden Files
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