Mental Evocations solutions?

[Sanctaphrax]

It still seems a bit off because other supernatural powers don't seem to treat mental stress as overwhelmingly massively better than physical...

Well, mental evocation has two big advantages over those other Powers. It's got a big weapon rating, and if you run into something mentally tough you can go with physical attacks instead.

In a game in which mental evocation exists & is broadly allowed, mental armor items are probably going to be as common as physical ones.

I dunno about that. I've almost never seen anyone with a defensive mental item.

"In world", though, I think combat specced spellcasters are very much the exception (thus, even at the worst of the Vampire War when lowering their standards and drafting people, the WC could only get about 1/20 to be Wardens).

True, but a defensive item isn't exactly a big investment. It's 0.25 Refresh...even a non-combatant might find it a worthwhile effort to make a protective talisman.

Interesting... like Sight and Soulgaze kind of synergy?  Seems somewhat powerful, but yeah, I don't know how else to deal with the Refresh bloat.

Way I see it, toughening up two stress tracks isn't twice as good as toughening up one. If getting Toughness against the type of stress you face the most is 2 Refresh/level, getting Toughness against a less common type ought to be less.

That's how I justify it balance-wise.

[Tedronai]

I dunno about that. I've almost never seen anyone with a defensive mental item.

I've certainly never so much as heard of one that wasn't either an enchanted item or an Item of Power, so no, they won't ever be as common as physical armour items.

[UmbraLux]

Hmmm, upon re-reading, it's not nearly as clear as I thought, every reference to mental magic could easily mean  thaumaturgy except for the one about using spirit evocations with a summoned creature's True Name.

Are you including the sidebar on YS255?  It explicitly states the Spirit element "...covers mental magic, emotions, ghosts..."

Personally, and not looking at what's allowed in the text, I like the old Dark Sun method.  Give everyone without access to mental powers / magic a block against it and then let the mentalists and WCVs hammer at each other.  Or just move on to FATE Core, it's less obviously broken. 

[Lavecki121]

Well, mental evocation has two big advantages over those other Powers. It's got a big weapon rating, and if you run into something mentally tough you can go with physical attacks instead.

I dont really understand how that is an advantage over physical evocation. If you run into something physically tough you can go with mental attacks instead. And the weapon rating should be the same in either case.

What if you limited the caster to only being able to do mental or only doing physical? Since no one liked my psychic backlash idea.

[Tedronai]

I just don't think that one jives with the fiction.
At most, I think that could be done for some characters by way of aspect mechanics.

[Lavecki121]

I dont think any of this jives with the fiction if thats what we are basing it off of.

[Sanctaphrax]

I dont really understand how that is an advantage over physical evocation. If you run into something physically tough you can go with mental attacks instead. And the weapon rating should be the same in either case.

That's an advantage over Incite Emotion, not an advantage over physical evocation.

What if you limited the caster to only being able to do mental or only doing physical? Since no one liked my psychic backlash idea.

That might help a little. I'd worry that everyone would take mental evocation since it's harder to defend against, but maybe the non-combat applications of physical evocation would make it more attractive.

[toturi]

That might help a little. I'd worry that everyone would take mental evocation since it's harder to defend against, but maybe the non-combat applications of physical evocation would make it more attractive.

I think it depends in part on how often mechanical contructs are encountered and how they are run. For example, does a drone have a Mental stress track? Does a car have a Mental stress track (assuming you cannot see the driver or that the car is already barrelling down on you and taking out the driver isn't going to help you)?

[Mrmdubois]

I'm not sure why mental stuff is harder to defend against.  From what I understand it's because it bypasses Speed and Toughness powers and Athletics, etc defenses, is that right?

But if you can come up with a justification, like, "Well, he can only direct his attacks at a visible target, so I'll dodge with Athletics to make it harder for him to track my location, or hide with Stealth, throw up a Glamour, etc." It should reduce the difficulty of defending.  Okay, maybe a brick type character would still run into problems since the Toughness powers only affect the Physical side of defending, but there are the Homebrew Mental Toughness powers which should help.  Plus, I think someone mentioned giving those at a discount if other Toughness powers are possessed.

I'm not arguing for or against by the way, just trying to wrap my head around the problem right now.

[Locnil]

What if you just let regular Toughness powers defend against mental attacks as well?

Also, something's that's been bugging me for a while.

That could be interesting, but it wouldn't actually do anything to reduce the power of mental attacks. Compels pay for themselves.

How do you figure?

[Mrmdubois]

A compel gives you a FP, thus zero sum value.

[Locnil]

A compel gives you a FP, thus zero sum value.

But then you have to spend a FP to resist it. Unless I've been misreading the rules this whole time.

[Lavecki121]

That's an advantage over Incite Emotion, not an advantage over physical evocation.

Ah ok, that makes way more sense.

That might help a little. I'd worry that everyone would take mental evocation since it's harder to defend against, but maybe the non-combat applications of physical evocation would make it more attractive.

If everyone is taking mental though you know what your characters are doing and can implement NPC's that counter/ create a challenge for them.

But then you have to spend a FP to resist it. Unless I've been misreading the rules this whole time.

You have not. But you either get a FP or you lose a FP. Thus zero sum value

[Taran]

I was thinking, for having a character that wants to be able to use mental evocations, that they should simply have an aspect related to it.  That way it can be compelled one way or another and it may give the GM a bit more control over situations - such as avoiding nuking physical tough opponents with mental attacks - while rewarding the player for not always going with the optimal attack form.

[Sanctaphrax]

If everyone is taking mental though you know what your characters are doing and can implement NPC's that counter/ create a challenge for them.

Yeah, but it's still weird and unfortunate if system quirks discourage people from making characters similar to the main character of the novels.

I think it depends in part on how often mechanical contructs are encountered and how they are run. For example, does a drone have a Mental stress track? Does a car have a Mental stress track (assuming you cannot see the driver or that the car is already barrelling down on you and taking out the driver isn't going to help you)?

That's what the Mindless Power is for!

Unfortunately it's not canon.

What if you just let regular Toughness powers defend against mental attacks as well?

That would help. Wouldn't make much sense to me though.

Also, something's that's been bugging me for a while.How do you figure?

Being vulnerable to Compels is not a weakness. So taking a Compellable Trouble Aspect doesn't make your character less powerful.

The benefit (FP) compensates for the penalty (Compels).

I was thinking, for having a character that wants to be able to use mental evocations, that they should simply have an aspect related to it.

They probably should, but requiring them to doesn't actually do anything at all to address the underlying balance issues.