Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.

[cedz]

Also, a little bit of the Erlking is in every weapon used to hunt, so every kill gives him more power.

Is that confirmed in the books or WOJ? If it is, that really is interesting especially if you consider the hexenwolf belts and whether they were created by the Erlking or not.

[peregrine]

It's as confirmed as some of the other statements here.

[Arjan]

We've seen at least two successful ghost-juice uses, one failed, and one non-mortal similar situation.

Mort's Ghost Lease
When Mort uses Harry's ghost, he gains his power and knowledge.  But he doesn't 'consume' it, leaving it as a separate entity from himself.  Harry detaches from Mort, and there's no reason to believe that Mort retained any power or knowledge from the exchange.  He temporarily borrows it, but doesn't join it to himself.

Harry's Nightmare Meal
When the Nightmare ate part of Harry's 'chi' in GP, he consumed it and made it part of himself.  He gained the power and knowledge which Harry had.  When Harry ate the Nightmare, he regained his own power and knowledge, along with that which Nightmare had.  He proves this by using dark power and spells which he didn't know previously.  And he never releases that energy to reform as the Nightmare; he consumed it, used it, and apparently burned up whatever energy wasn't originally his until it was gone.

Darkhallow
I imagine the Darkhallow is more like how Harry & the Nightmare consumed each other.  The person that consumes the power of the vortex is taking in the power and knowledge of all of those spirits, and joining it to himself.  The difference between the two is location.  The Darkhallow ritual takes place in the real world by drawing ghosts to the real world and bonding them to a real body.  Harry & NM both created/attacked in pocket dimensions in the NN, which allowed them to attack and consume the pure spiritual energy of the other.  No vortex needed.

I think the big difference between the nightmare meal and a mantle is when you consume another spirit it becomes part of yourself, you can get tainted or mad if you consume the wrong spirit.

A Mantle is a way to reduce that risk by keeping the extra power as a seperate entity. We see that some people are better than others in seperating themselves from their mantles but they all do otherwise they end up crazy like Lilly.

I think the memories are stored both in the spirit and the soul and that is how Harry could be rebuild after he lost most of his spiritual essence. Most spirits are without soul but I think beings like Harry are not entirely unknown. Corpstaker was one and Kemmler must have been one several times. It is the only way a necromancer can return from the dead.

The deads in a darkhallow would be usefull for the wizard performing it in several ways, not the least because it frees their spirits to be consumed with the rest of the ghosts.

[Serack]

We've seen at least two successful ghost-juice uses, one failed, and one non-mortal similar situation.

Mort's Ghost Lease
When Mort uses Harry's ghost, he gains his power and knowledge.  But he doesn't 'consume' it, leaving it as a separate entity from himself.  Harry detaches from Mort, and there's no reason to believe that Mort retained any power or knowledge from the exchange.  He temporarily borrows it, but doesn't join it to himself.

Harry's Nightmare Meal
When the Nightmare ate part of Harry's 'chi' in GP, he consumed it and made it part of himself.  He gained the power and knowledge which Harry had.  When Harry ate the Nightmare, he regained his own power and knowledge, along with that which Nightmare had.  He proves this by using dark power and spells which he didn't know previously.  And he never releases that energy to reform as the Nightmare; he consumed it, used it, and apparently burned up whatever energy wasn't originally his until it was gone.

Darkhallow
I imagine the Darkhallow is more like how Harry & the Nightmare consumed each other.  The person that consumes the power of the vortex is taking in the power and knowledge of all of those spirits, and joining it to himself.  The difference between the two is location.  The Darkhallow ritual takes place in the real world by drawing ghosts to the real world and bonding them to a real body.  Harry & NM both created/attacked in pocket dimensions in the NN, which allowed them to attack and consume the pure spiritual energy of the other.  No vortex needed.

Death by Darkhallow
The way I reason out life in the Dresdenverse is that there are three parts: body, soul, and spirit.  The body is physical, and can die.  The soul is power/knowledge inherent to the individual, and is eternal.  The spirit is natural power tied to the magic field in the Dresdenverse.  It can contain some knowledge, but it's not all knowledge like the soul.  When someone dies, their soul would go on to whatever domain they associated with.  The body would break down, and rejoin nature.  The spirit would rejoin the magic field, unless a ghost is formed of it instead.  In traumatic death, the spirit doesn't rebond with the magic field because it's unsettled.  Instead, it retains partial knowledge from the soul, enough to retain part of it's old living identity.  When we see a ghost in the Dresdenverse, it's 100% spirit.  Except for Harry, who I think was a spirit/soul combo.  At the end, Harry's spirit was all but burned off, which is why Mort couldn't see him, but he still existed as soul.  And Mort can't see souls, because he couldn't see Harry or Uriel.

In this interpretation of mine, the Darkhallow would effectively rip the spirit from all of the living things in range.  The body would die, and I believe that the soul would move on like it normally would.  The spirit, instead of rejoining the magic field, would be merged with the Hallower's spirit, thus increasing their power.  Any significant knowledge would also transfer, although I think generic knowledge (like where an old lady keeps her spare key) would be disgarded by the spirit, and only be retained by the soul.

The reason I don't think the souls are consumed by a Darkhallow is simple: the post-life pantheons wouldn't approve at all.  If someone can steal another's immortal soul to power themselves, then that would really piss off the other Powers. 

Bob's Ride-along
We've also seen a form of spirit merging with Bob's ride-alongs.  In the Dresdenverse, I'm assuming animal's have souls, or at least some do.  Mouse would seem to have a soul.  Maybe Mister does, and maybe he doesn't.  Tara West wouldn't seem to have a soul, because there was no soulgaze; but that may be because she either has no soul, or it's so different from Harry's that there's no connection. 

So how could creatures without souls, ranging between animals and Fae, use magic?  Because they're mostly powered by spirit, which is the connection to the natural magic field thingy.  A Fae is probably mostly spirit, with either a fabricated or malleable body, and either little to no soul.  For Bob, he doesn't have a form, but the motes that make him are his body; it's just not solid enough to exist on its own.

When Bob goes on a ride-along, his spirit is temporarily bonded with that of the host; Bob can likely see the knowledge in them, and maybe even tap their power like Mort can.  But he keeps himself separate, without one consuming the other.  It's very similar to what Mort does.  The question is whether or not Bob could go on ride-along with Harry and take over, or if Harry could tap into Bob's power and knowledge during ride-along.  So it may be the same, and it may be different.

Creating a Mantle
I'm not sure about how to create a Mantle, since it's not fully understood so far.  It would make sense that a Darkhallow would create a massive spiritual power-up, but I'm not sure that there'd be enough of a singular identity to create a NEW eternal mantle.  I think in the DB Darkhallow, if the Erlking had been in the field, his power and mantle would have been pulled up along with everyone else.  In that sense, the Hallower would become the new Erlking, which would be A mantle; but I'm not sure if the new power would be given to the Erlking mantle itself, or if it would still be unique to the Hallower.  When the Hallower died, I'm not sure that the power obtained in the Darkhallow would go to the new Erlking.

I think Mantle creation would require more power than a Darkhallow, even on the scale we saw before.  Maybe I'm off base, especially if it does in fact consume souls.  But I imagine a Darkhallow Ascended entity would be near-immortal, with potential to gather further power to themselves, and eventually create a mantle.

This post is so full of awesome, especially the section analyzing differences between soul and spirit and body under the Darkhallow heading.

I have 2 comments to make.

We have another example of spirit consumption when Corpses Taker ate all the mad spirits near the end of GS.

Also, I have some interesting takes on how the soul works.  They are partially shaped by something Lea said to Harry while he was recounting his fight with HHWB

"I . . . Godmother, I've heard it said that ghosts are memories."
"Indeed," Lea said, nodding.
"Are the memories truth?"
[/snip]
They are the facts, the events as you experienced them."
I frowned.  "I never really had a clear recollection of exactly what the thing said to me," I said  "I mean, that blow to the head gave me a headache for days."
"Ah yes," Lea said.  "I remember your pain."
She would.  "Yeah, uh.  Anyway.  I'm remembering the conversation now, word for word.  Is that real?  Or is it something that guy in black made up to fill in the blanks?"
"They are your memories," she said, "the record, the impression of what you lived.  Your brain isn't the only place they are stored- it is, in truth, often a poor facility for such a purpose."  She paused to consider her next words and then spread her hands, palm up, an odd light in her eyes.  "It is the nature of the universe that things remain.  Nothing ever disappears completely.  The very sound of Creation still echoes throughout the vast darkness:  The universe remembers.  You are currently free of the shackles of mortality.  Your limited brain no longer impedes access to that record.  The only blocks to your memory are those you allow to be."

This conversation immediately made me think of some of Harry's experiences with Lash/Lasciel.  She made some similar comments about Harry's mortality limiting his perceptions on things, and notibly also had access to perfect recollection of things Harry had experienced.  Also remember how Bob said that angelic types are pretty much all soul and nothing else.  So either the eternal soul is these memories, or has a facility that can access them perfectly.  When I was reading Dead Beat, I always thought Lash was picking/using Harry's wetware (brain) for the photographic memories she was able to recall, but after reading GS it seemed that as an angelic being she was able to view Harry's soul directly and pick the information from that.

[Griffyn612]

I think the big difference between the nightmare meal and a mantle is when you consume another spirit it becomes part of yourself, you can get tainted or mad if you consume the wrong spirit.

A Mantle is a way to reduce that risk by keeping the extra power as a seperate entity. We see that some people are better than others in seperating themselves from their mantles but they all do otherwise they end up crazy like Lilly.

I think the memories are stored both in the spirit and the soul and that is how Harry could be rebuild after he lost most of his spiritual essence. Most spirits are without soul but I think beings like Harry are not entirely unknown. Corpstaker was one and Kemmler must have been one several times. It is the only way a necromancer can return from the dead.

The deads in a darkhallow would be usefull for the wizard performing it in several ways, not the least because it frees their spirits to be consumed with the rest of the ghosts.

     The problem lies, for me, in drawing the line at what is and isn't a Mantle, and whether a Mantle can be an non-sentient being in and of itself.  For example, we know that the Winter Knight mantle grants power, abilities, and knowledge.  According to WoJ, the bearer can influence the Mantle to some degree.  Countless homicidal WK's have probably added to the pre-existing darkness that would accompany a Mantle of Winter. 
     How does that influence occur?  Well, in the Dresdenverse, we have at least one example of people swapping bits of their souls with each other when they're close (Harry and Karrin).  We've also got an example of a free willed person changing an eternal being (Harry and Lash).
     Maybe it's not too far off to guess that some sort of soul exists within a Mantle itself.  Maybe not the poetic, pretty version of a soul that we're used to.  But maybe the technical, Dresdenverse soul that is a collection of memories, experience, knowledge, and self. 
     There's a WoJ, I believe, talking about how Molly has a soul still, but will slowly lose it if she remains WL.  And he also says that Mab had a soul at one point, but he's not sure how much is left.  In the Dresdenverse, things aren't given for free.  The bearer of the Mantle gets a lot from the Mantle, and has to give something in return.  What if it's their soul?
     I don't mean in a soul-eating way, or a eternal damnation sell-your-soul way.  I mean, what if the Mantle is some sort of non-sentient lifeform, which absorbs the soul of the Mantle bearer over time?  It would explain a lot; as the bearer takes more and more of the Mantle personality onto themselves, they lose that much of themselves. 
     My interpretation of that would not be that the Mantle itself is malicious, or trying to do harm to the bearer.  It's just existing.  And the soul wouldn't be devoured or consumed and then disgarded.  It would become part of the collective Mantle.
     My only fear in this is that it might support the crazy Mab=Molly theory subcategory, "Molly will be Mab, as Mab is every other Mab before her."
     In that sense, a Darkhallow ceremony would have to absorb both (_{of my theoretical}) soul and spirit of those killed in the process.  In doing so, it would merge all of that soul and spirit energy into a new, non-sentient entity, which would be bonded with the bearer like any other Mantle.  Then, if and when the bearer dies, the Mantle would continue to exist, and another could take it up, thus trading (unknowingly) their soul for power.
     The obvious argument against that is smaller Mantles, like the Santa mantle.  There's been theories banded about regarding Odin, and whether or not he's the "first" Odin, or just the current bearer of the Mantle of "Odin".  If he bears an Odin Mantle, then the conflict arises when there are two Mantles associated with one soul; who gets what? 

This post is so full of awesome, especially the section analyzing differences between soul and spirit and body under the Darkhallow heading.

I have 2 comments to make.

We have another example of spirit consumption when Corpses Taker ate all the mad spirits near the end of GS.

Also, I have some interesting takes on how the soul works.  They are partially shaped by something Lea said to Harry while he was recounting his fight with HHWB

This conversation immediately made me think of some of Harry's experiences with Lash/Lasciel.  She made some similar comments about Harry's mortality limiting his perceptions on things, and notibly also had access to perfect recollection of things Harry had experienced.  Also remember how Bob said that angelic types are pretty much all soul and nothing else.  So either the eternal soul is these memories, or has a facility that can access them perfectly.  When I was reading Dead Beat, I always thought Lash was picking/using Harry's wetware (brain) for the photographic memories she was able to recall, but after reading GS it seemed that as an angelic being she was able to view Harry's soul directly and pick the information from that.

     Good point about the Corpsetaker instance.  In that scene, she absorbed the spirits to herself, thus boosting her power.  Since the spirits wouldn't be anything truly pure in memory, they might not influence her. 
     Part of me wonders if that might also explain the body-swap process: the spirit and body remain, but the souls are swapped.  With Luccio's soul in a new body, with a weaker and different magical spirit, she isn't able to do the same things she was able to do before.  For Corpsetaker, she jumped without a spirit (or much of one, at any rate) and body to attach to, so she ended up drifting as a soul.  With the consumption of all of those spirits, it gave her 2/3 of the recipe. 
     As for Lash, her being pure soul makes partial sense to me, but I think she was only a part of the Lasciel soul-entity.  Lasciel probably took a piece of her own abundant soul energy, containing a snapshot of her knowledge and power, and slapped it onto Harry's soul and body.  Once there, it should have worked on Harry, until he eventually took up the coin, and the soul fragment returned to the whole.  Then, as I speculated above with the Mantles, Lasciel might give power and knowledge to the bearer, in return for their soul being devoured.  In this instance, it would likely be more like consumption/absorption with mal-intent, since Lasciel perceives herself as a greater being that had to bow to lesser beings. 
     But when Harry sealed away the coin, Lash didn't have a clear connection back to the whole Lasciel entity.  So she fed off of Harry's soul, very minutely, in a manner similar to Harry and Karrin swapping bits.  Enough that they influenced each other; Harry, with his quick temper while hosting Lash, and Lash becoming more understanding and open to change.
     Lash, being primarily a copy of a soul-entity, would likely have access to Harry's pure soul memories.  It would explain her perfect recall of things he'd seen and done.  But I think she also had knowledge that he was unaware of.  In the garage in PG, she basically ran sonar for him, despite the fact he couldn't draw on magic.  She wasn't pulling 100% from memory, because it was real time.  So I think the soul-memory thing explains most of it, but not all.

[Serack]

     As for Lash, her being pure soul makes partial sense to me, but I think she was only a part of the Lasciel soul-entity.  Lasciel probably took a piece of her own abundant soul energy, containing a snapshot of her knowledge and power, and slapped it onto Harry's soul and body.  Once there, it should have worked on Harry, until he eventually took up the coin, and the soul fragment returned to the whole.  Then, as I speculated above with the Mantles, Lasciel might give power and knowledge to the bearer, in return for their soul being devoured.  In this instance, it would likely be more like consumption/absorption with mal-intent, since Lasciel perceives herself as a greater being that had to bow to lesser beings. 
     But when Harry sealed away the coin, Lash didn't have a clear connection back to the whole Lasciel entity.  So she fed off of Harry's soul, very minutely, in a manner similar to Harry and Karrin swapping bits.  Enough that they influenced each other; Harry, with his quick temper while hosting Lash, and Lash becoming more understanding and open to change.

Actually, I'm not sure Lash consumed any of Harry's soul until the very end.  Part of this is because of the stuff Bob said about the missing bit of soul at the end of White Night (all quoted here in my ole Lash theory) implying to me that it was only then that some of his had been exchanged with Lash, but also partly because as the events of WN transpired, Lash's personification kept getting more and more ragged, implying to me that she was becoming... tattered possibly because of an identity crisis, but also possibly because the bit of soul/power she was running off of from the original entity was wearing thin. 

     Lash, being primarily a copy of a soul-entity, would likely have access to Harry's pure soul memories.  It would explain her perfect recall of things he'd seen and done.  But I think she also had knowledge that he was unaware of.  In the garage in PG, she basically ran sonar for him, despite the fact he couldn't draw on magic.  She wasn't pulling 100% from memory, because it was real time.  So I think the soul-memory thing explains most of it, but not all.

Actually the way I saw that, all the information that was projected into the illusion he was walking through in that scene was purely from memory, or was extrapolated from things he interacted with directly.  I believe there was a bottle he threw that either disappeared when it left his hand, or when it broke against another surface. 

Yes she had knowledge that did not source from Harry, like the significance of his birth, and the yogi trick to collapse his hand, but that was a resource she brought with her when she inhabited Harry.

[TheCuriousFan]

According to WoJ, the bearer can influence the Mantle to some degree.  Countless homicidal WK's have probably added to the pre-existing darkness that would accompany a Mantle of Winter.

     There's a WoJ, I believe, talking about how Molly has a soul still, but will slowly lose it if she remains WL.  And he also says that Mab had a soul at one point, but he's not sure how much is left.  In the Dresdenverse, things aren't given for free.  The bearer of the Mantle gets a lot from the Mantle, and has to give something in return.  What if it's their soul?

Source for the WoJ about the bearer influencing the mantle please.

And here's the WoJ about Molly having a soul still.

Rasins: The other question I had is *clears throat*, I'm trying to phrase this to not give too much away, when a human takes on the mantle of a Fae, do they automatically become Fae? Do they lose their soul?

Jim: Ok, do they automatically become Fae, do they lose their soul? The answer to that question is “sort of”. Um, it’s automatic, but not necessarily instant. Mab herself was human once, and she eventually became the, uh, the fun-loving Mab that we all know. So, a lot of it has to do with who you are when you go into it, because most of the Fae were human once. A lot were born as half-bloods and decided to become Fae and sort of automatically got their mantle for free, but all the other fae who were there, including the Erlking and several others, who were at one point humans….So, a lot of this is going to depend on who they might end up being, a lot of it depends on who they are going into it and what kind of will they have to maintain who they are. That’s going to be a big deal. I’m really looking forward to writing the next books so I can see what happens with Molly, ‘cause I’m really not sure yet, I have a vague idea of what’s gonna happen, because basically she just got handed the largest, unruliest crowd of little brothers and sisters to deal with ever.

*Audience laughter*

Jim: But on the other hand, she’s kinda cool with that. She’s used to that role. So anyway, we’ll have to see what happens to her, but, uh, there’s a lot of choice involved *unintelligible* as far as soul goes. Everybody always talks about souls as if it’s something you can have a receipt for, that if you lose it, then it’s just gone, and I don’t think souls work that way, I think that there’s too much attached to them, I think that there are too many things that consist of what your soul is, so I don’t think this is kinda trying to figure “did you lose your soul?”, because I think you can lose your soul without bothering to stop by any kind of supernatural beings whatsoever. You know, if you watch the news, you’ll see people who do that all the time. But yeah, as far as The Dresden Files goes, as far as eternal damnation, etc., goes, no I don’t think that’s as much an issue for Molly as yet, it could sometime though. Whether Mab has some kind of spark of a soul left or not, that’s one of those questions that would be very difficult to answer, and I’m probably not smart enough to answer it. But uh, probably, when you've gone so far down the road to pure power as Mab has, it’s hard to hang on to your soul. And it depends on how people who have been handed all this extra stuff deal with it, and what that’s going to do for them in the long run. And it’s one of those long run kind of things, meaning you’re going to be stuck like that for 2,000 years, you don’t really have to go bad tomorrow, you have plenty of time yet to start growing mold on your conscience and so on.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36681.msg1825874.html#msg1825874

[wizard nelson]

 Maybe it's not too far off to guess that some sort of soul exists within a Mantle itself.  Maybe not the poetic, pretty version of a soul that we're used to.  But maybe the technical, Dresdenverse soul that is a collection of memories, experience, knowledge, and self.

in response to that I want to quote some shamantics

to understand shamanistic worldview, which is based on the premise that the visible world is pervaded by invisible forces and/or spirits which affect the lives of the living, the elements and nature in general. Everything/anything either has or has potential to gain awareness and/or consciousness.

Mantles are the spirit of something wrapped around an actual being?

My interpretation of that would not be that the Mantle itself is malicious, or trying to do harm to the bearer.  It's just existing.  And the soul wouldn't be devoured or consumed and then disgarded.  It would become part of the collective Mantle.

Well that seems extreme>

[Arjan]

     The problem lies, for me, in drawing the line at what is and isn't a Mantle, and whether a Mantle can be an non-sentient being in and of itself. 

Humans like to draw lines, to categorize things and it is an important tool for understanding things. Harry especially loves it but Vadderung gives an implicit warning in Cold Days:

“Masks, mantles,” Kringle said. “What’s the difference?”

In Nature things often flow over into each other and if we see separate things the intermediate stages just have been removed. Drawing lines here is arbitrary.

I see a continuum. A mantle is a package of Spirit. Mab calls it power. All mantles we have seen have nature which expresses in emotions, mostly very basic emotions. Power is accessed through emotions, Harry's magic depends on emotions.

Magic comes from the spirit, power, life and in that sense every wizard has a mantle but that mantle has no autonomy, it is one with the wizards spirit. This is one side of the continuum.  But even then there are wizards who use their power and wizards who are used by their power, warlocks. I imagine you can create a spirit by splitting of part of your power like Bob did and give it autonomy.

In that sense a warlock is the second stage, he is possessed by his power, the nature of his power controls him.

Next step is the mantle proper. It is separate from the bearer but it has no name. But it can take form between bearers.
It has its own nature which results in emotional pressure for the bearer.

The white courts vampires hunger is another example. It has more autonomy but it still does not have a name, only a title though an individual white court vampire might give it a name and so give it extra autonomy.  To call it a symbiotic demon, a non passable mantle or a split personality is arbitrary, It is a wave/particle thing. Use them all if it improves your understanding.

A theory is a description of reality, not reality itself.

The other extreme is the demon that possesses you. The package of power has complete autonomy, a separate identity including a name (very important, Harry gave Lash a name and in the end she was not part of Lasciel anymore).

But of course the level of control the demon has over you (or you over the demon) can differ. In that sense you can describe the mantle as a possessing demon only the demon has very little autonomy and control.

For example, we know that the Winter Knight mantle grants power, abilities, and knowledge.  According to WoJ, the bearer can influence the Mantle to some degree. 

That is because the bearer has Soul and soul can influence spirit. Humans can change the nature of other supernatural beings for that reason.

Countless homicidal WK's have probably added to the pre-existing darkness that would accompany a Mantle of Winter. 

     How does that influence occur? 

Basically by faith which is an expression of the soul (I think, it is not normal magic coming from the spirit) . Faith can used directly for example by driving of vampires but it also changes nature. It is no accident that the nevernever entities take the forms designed by human imagination, the stories made and believed by humans.

Well, in the Dresdenverse, we have at least one example of people swapping bits of their souls with each other when they're close (Harry and Karrin).  We've also got an example of a free willed person changing an eternal being (Harry and Lash).

But Harry did not give Lash a soul, he gave her autonomy. He did not give her free will which I connect with the human soul. The warlock ruled by his power/spirit does not have free will anymore.

     Maybe it's not too far off to guess that some sort of soul exists within a Mantle itself.  Maybe not the poetic, pretty version of a soul that we're used to.  But maybe the technical, Dresdenverse soul that is a collection of memories, experience, knowledge, and self.

If the mantle had a soul it could change itself and I do not think so.

 
     There's a WoJ, I believe, talking about how Molly has a soul still, but will slowly lose it if she remains WL.  And he also says that Mab had a soul at one point, but he's not sure how much is left.  In the Dresdenverse, things aren't given for free. 

The Sidhe don't do that but other creatures are free to give and to take things. More taking than giving though. :-)

The bearer of the Mantle gets a lot from the Mantle, and has to give something in return.  What if it's their soul?
     I don't mean in a soul-eating way, or a eternal damnation sell-your-soul way.  I mean, what if the Mantle is some sort of non-sentient lifeform, which absorbs the soul of the Mantle bearer over time?  It would explain a lot; as the bearer takes more and more of the Mantle personality onto themselves, they lose that much of themselves.

The soul can not be taken away  (Word Of Bob in Ghost Story) , you loose it by making choices. You can get very bad choices though and the mantle gives you loads of opportunities to loose your soul.

 
     My interpretation of that would not be that the Mantle itself is malicious, or trying to do harm to the bearer.  It's just existing. 

You can say that of a lot of things, including the shark that eats you. It depends on how much autonomy and intelligence the mantle has. Or Soul/Free will if you choose that point of view. I do not think the mantle has soul.

And the soul wouldn't be devoured or consumed and then disgarded. 

But it can go on to what comes next. Whatever that may be.

It would become part of the collective Mantle.
     My only fear in this is that it might support the crazy Mab=Molly theory subcategory, "Molly will be Mab, as Mab is every other Mab before her."

Maybe if she looses herself completely to the mantle but only the spirit, the soul would have gone already.

     In that sense, a Darkhallow ceremony would have to absorb both (_{of my theoretical}) soul and spirit of those killed in the process. 

I do not think it can. To loose your soul you have to make some sort of choice. Your spirit can just be taken like a white court vampire does.

In doing so, it would merge all of that soul and spirit energy into a new, non-sentient entity, which would be bonded with the bearer like any other Mantle.  Then, if and when the bearer dies, the Mantle would continue to exist, and another could take it up, thus trading (unknowingly) their soul for power.
     The obvious argument against that is smaller Mantles, like the Santa mantle.  There's been theories banded about regarding Odin, and whether or not he's the "first" Odin, or just the current bearer of the Mantle of "Odin".  If he bears an Odin Mantle, then the conflict arises when there are two Mantles associated with one soul; who gets what? 

I do not think the mantle has a soul but in all cases the mantle is separate from the bearer so whatever the mantle absorbs becomes part of the mantle.

     Good point about the Corpsetaker instance.  In that scene, she absorbed the spirits to herself, thus boosting her power.  Since the spirits wouldn't be anything truly pure in memory, they might not influence her. 
     Part of me wonders if that might also explain the body-swap process: the spirit and body remain, but the souls are swapped.

I think both spirit and soul are swapped. In ghost story a soul without a spirit like Harry was powerless to do anything. To take over a body you start a spiritual battle and you try to destroy or take over or push out the other persons spirit (taking over means consuming) and after the spiritual battle is won you can push out the soul. Your own spirit and soul will take residence.

Butters spirit was pushed out with his soul, Harry could see it.

  With Luccio's soul in a new body, with a weaker and different magical spirit, she isn't able to do the same things she was able to do before.  For Corpsetaker, she jumped without a spirit (or much of one, at any rate) and body to attach to, so she ended up drifting as a soul.  With the consumption of all of those spirits, it gave her 2/3 of the recipe.

Lucio's spirit was defeated and her new body had a totally different wiring. When Harry was made a wizard by Justin he had headaches caused by rewiring his brain.

 
     As for Lash, her being pure soul makes partial sense to me, but I think she was only a part of the Lasciel soul-entity.  Lasciel probably took a piece of her own abundant soul energy, containing a snapshot of her knowledge and power, and slapped it onto Harry's soul and body.  Once there, it should have worked on Harry, until he eventually took up the coin, and the soul fragment returned to the whole.  Then, as I speculated above with the Mantles, Lasciel might give power and knowledge to the bearer, in return for their soul being devoured.  In this instance, it would likely be more like consumption/absorption with mal-intent, since Lasciel perceives herself as a greater being that had to bow to lesser beings. 
     But when Harry sealed away the coin, Lash didn't have a clear connection back to the whole Lasciel entity.  So she fed off of Harry's soul, very minutely, in a manner similar to Harry and Karrin swapping bits.  Enough that they influenced each other; Harry, with his quick temper while hosting Lash, and Lash becoming more understanding and open to change.
     Lash, being primarily a copy of a soul-entity, would likely have access to Harry's pure soul memories.  It would explain her perfect recall of things he'd seen and done.  But I think she also had knowledge that he was unaware of.  In the garage in PG, she basically ran sonar for him, despite the fact he couldn't draw on magic.  She wasn't pulling 100% from memory, because it was real time.  So I think the soul-memory thing explains most of it, but not all.

[wizard nelson]

Even the nickel heads don't eat whole souls,they get freedom eventually. Although probably in Hell, lacking real freedom. That may be part of it though. Simpler if its loss of soul from acting inhuman from an inhuman Mantle. Odin has soul Woj though, so it can't be the mantle itself taking tiths.

The reason I don't think the souls are consumed by a Darkhallow is simple: the post-life pantheons wouldn't approve at all.  If someone can steal another's immortal soul to power themselves, then that would really piss off the other Powers.

It happens hence the Archangels in GS keeping an eye out. I actually think the opposite. Many things seem likely to get at the soul. WCV eat soul imo, thats why justine was so messed up and why killing is such a rush/boost and I've wondered about the death curse too. I mean how would anyone really know in the DV? Plus I haven't heard of alot of wizard ghosts. if consumed nothing departs, no ghost impression left.

[Phariah]

He so another idea revived. I'd noticed that the darkhallow had very similar form to an exorcism, what with the vortex. I had the idea that the darkhallow was simply a really big reverse exorcism adding in some of the evil aspects of tearing apart Memories and eating them rather than just binding them.  and I think I have the prof. Mort does the very thing I described, sans eating, with his guardian spirits. Perhaps most telling, he didn't just possess their knowledge but physical attributes combined. Kemmler must have expanded on this ectomantic trick. Small wag to round this line of thought off. The reason Mort is effected by the timeline fluctuations is because TTH goes back to learn the secrets of the hallow from him. More to come but i have to break it down.

the Darkhallow is in no way similar to an exorcism. one devours spirits to gain power and the other drives a spirit/ demon from someone /  or place. if it was a reverse exorcism it would be drawing spirits into people or a land to haunt it. the Darkhallow does not eat memories it devours the spirits of the dead and living. also it is not the same as Morts ability. darkhallow is the eating of souls for power while Mort uses the skills and knowledge of the spirits that he borrows.

[wizard nelson]

a reverse exorcism it would be drawing spirits into people

Kinda like Mort does?

the Darkhallow does not eat memories it devours the spirits of the dead and living.

And as pointed out in GS and here, spirits are all memory.

darkhallow is the eating of souls for power

Wait I'm confused, so you think the DH eat spirits, living things or souls? Not the same.

Mort uses the skills and knowledge of the spirits that he borrows.

Also actual power as shown by having their literal combined strength. My point was one must combine spirit commanding, possession and devouring principles to invent a darkhallow. Same general idea's, all foung in GS. like tracking spells and heart ripping curses are both thaumaturgy, same principles, different intentions.

[123456789blaaa]

This is some good stuff. Should this thread be put into the reference collection?

Humans like to draw lines, to categorize things and it is an important tool for understanding things. Harry especially loves it but Vadderung gives an implicit warning in Cold Days:

In Nature things often flow over into each other and if we see separate things the intermediate stages just have been removed. Drawing lines here is arbitrary.

I see a continuum. A mantle is a package of Spirit. Mab calls it power. All mantles we have seen have nature which expresses in emotions, mostly very basic emotions. Power is accessed through emotions, Harry's magic depends on emotions.

Magic comes from the spirit, power, life and in that sense every wizard has a mantle but that mantle has no autonomy, it is one with the wizards spirit. This is one side of the continuum.  But even then there are wizards who use their power and wizards who are used by their power, warlocks. I imagine you can create a spirit by splitting of part of your power like Bob did and give it autonomy.

In that sense a warlock is the second stage, he is possessed by his power, the nature of his power controls him.

Next step is the mantle proper. It is separate from the bearer but it has no name. But it can take form between bearers.
It has its own nature which results in emotional pressure for the bearer.

The white courts vampires hunger is another example. It has more autonomy but it still does not have a name, only a title though an individual white court vampire might give it a name and so give it extra autonomy.  To call it a symbiotic demon, a non passable mantle or a split personality is arbitrary, It is a wave/particle thing. Use them all if it improves your understanding.

A theory is a description of reality, not reality itself.

The other extreme is the demon that possesses you. The package of power has complete autonomy, a separate identity including a name (very important, Harry gave Lash a name and in the end she was not part of Lasciel anymore).

But of course the level of control the demon has over you (or you over the demon) can differ. In that sense you can describe the mantle as a possessing demon only the demon has very little autonomy and control.
<snip>

Jim chose to use the word Mantle for a reason. The word itself has an RL meaning. YOu have taken the word and made its definition so broad as to be almost useless. Griffin had a good post expressing my thoughts on Mantles:

I'm not sure that I agree with the way everyone uses the word mantle.  For instance, I'm not sure the Gatekeeper is a mantle, just as I'm sure that "The Warden" (of demonreach) is not a mantle in the same way that Knight of Summer is a mantle or lady Winter is a mantle.  The mantles seem like things that flow to the next best closest candidate available, whereas "The Warden" or "the gatekeeper" can be killed and assuming that no one has been trained to take up that title and performs the neccesary rituals then there is no Warden or Gatekeeper until someone chooses to fill that position.  I think if we were ever to meet the Fates we would see that they are mantles that flow to keep reality from unhinging, whereas The Warden and The Gatekeeper are titles that convey duties chosen and accepted like The Merlin. Does that make sense?

First, the technical definition.

Definition of MANTLE

1
a : a loose sleeveless garment worn over other clothes : cloak
b : a figurative cloak symbolizing preeminence or authority <accepted the mantle of leadership>

Now, in the Dresdenverse, there may be roles or jobs that are called Mantles, because they impart a certain authority.  I don't think that the Gatekeeper 'mantle' of authority bestows any particular power on the person in the position; but there are benefits, such as using something like the crystal eye, and apparently living for centuries longer than other wizards.

Other mantles serve as both mantles of authority and mantles of power.  Specifically, the Fae mantles (Mother,Queen,Lady,Knight) all come with both authority and power.  The power is linked to what seems to be a non-sentient symbiotic entity that joins with a host, thus providing the entity a way of interacting with the world, and providing the host with power and ability. 

Some mantles aren't particularly clear about whether or not there's a power or ability granted.  There's been some debate about whether or not the mantle of Merlin of the Council comes with some boost.  Clearly the Blackstaff mantle does, as it means that the person is the bearer of the staff.  But it's not the title itself granting the power; the title follows the ownership. 

There are also theoretical mantles that some on the site here speculate on.  Some like to think that old gods and demi-gods had a sort of mantle that others can take up to assume that role.  Odin being Santa is confusing; is he the original Santa, since Santa Claus is somewhat based on the Odin legend?  Or is it another Fae mantle that someone had, and then took the mantle public with good publicity years ago?  Is Odin himself merely an elevated mortal wizard that became an immortal by obtaining a mantle previously possessed by Woden?  Or is he the original Woden?  It's all speculative, which is where people get confused about where individual power begins and mantle power ends.

A White Court vamps demon is not a Mantle because it isn't a role. Same thing with most of your other examples.

[Cozarkian]

Kinda like Mort does?

I'm not sure Mort can draw them in. It looked like ghosts basically automatically possess someone whenever they occupy the same space. Since Mort is a powerful ectomancer, he basically reverses the possession and takes control of the ghost. I don't recall him drawing a ghost in from across the room, but since he can see the ghost, he can basically possess it as easily as it can possess him.

Harry possessed Molly too, but rather than taking forcible control of her body he asked permission. Corpsetaker's ability was essentially leaving her body, possessing another individual, and then kicking the old spirit out. I would have been curious to see a Mort v. Corpsetaker fight. Corpsetaker's power seemed to depend mostly on mental magic, but that doesn't mean ectomancy isn't involved and/or wouldn't be superior for that use.

[TheCuriousFan]

I'm not sure Mort can draw them in. It looked like ghosts basically automatically possess someone whenever they occupy the same space. Since Mort is a powerful ectomancer, he basically reverses the possession and takes control of the ghost. I don't recall him drawing a ghost in from across the room, but since he can see the ghost, he can basically possess it as easily as it can possess him.

Harry possessed Molly too, but rather than taking forcible control of her body he asked permission. Corpsetaker's ability was essentially leaving her body, possessing another individual, and then kicking the old spirit out. I would have been curious to see a Mort v. Corpsetaker fight. Corpsetaker's power seemed to depend mostly on mental magic, but that doesn't mean ectomancy isn't involved and/or wouldn't be superior for that use.

Wasn't Harry really odd for being able to possess people?