Author Topic: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.  (Read 13922 times)

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« on: May 11, 2013, 02:04:05 PM »
He so another idea revived. I'd noticed that the darkhallow had very similar form to an exorcism, what with the vortex. I had the idea that the darkhallow was simply a really big reverse exorcism adding in some of the evil aspects of tearing apart Memories and eating them rather than just binding them.  :o and I think I have the prof. Mort does the very thing I described, sans eating, with his guardian spirits. Perhaps most telling, he didn't just possess their knowledge but physical attributes combined. Kemmler must have expanded on this ectomantic trick. Small wag to round this line of thought off. The reason Mort is effected by the timeline fluctuations is because TTH goes back to learn the secrets of the hallow from him. More to come but i have to break it down.

This topic has some amazing discussion, especially starting with Griffyn612's reply #3 and the responses to that. -Serack
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 04:27:19 PM by Serack »

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2013, 02:14:57 PM »
Well about the darkhallow,
Quote
Cause you need people around to fuel the fire.  Had Cowl been successful, his ascension would have exterminated every source of life for several miles--and the more who died, the more elevated he would have become.  Think of them as a big old batch of human sacrifices.
Theorical, in GS we see alot of memory is power, magic is created by emotional impressions left by people ect. Because of the way this was worded I came up with this idea, the deaths are significant in that they create an impression of the event, this is two fold. Those far enough to survive and learn of the petulant deity create a living memory of the identity of the new godling. something needed in mantle creation. >

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2013, 02:21:31 PM »
< 2nd those who died are suddenly the energy, the magic surrounding a being of such willpower he can draw it in and weave it into the mantle itself. In essence the deaths fullfill a need in having living memory combined with a spiritual memory to create a mantle. If that makes sense to anyone but me?

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2013, 11:12:27 PM »
We've seen at least two successful ghost-juice uses, one failed, and one non-mortal similar situation.

Mort's Ghost Lease
When Mort uses Harry's ghost, he gains his power and knowledge.  But he doesn't 'consume' it, leaving it as a separate entity from himself.  Harry detaches from Mort, and there's no reason to believe that Mort retained any power or knowledge from the exchange.  He temporarily borrows it, but doesn't join it to himself.

Harry's Nightmare Meal
When the Nightmare ate part of Harry's 'chi' in GP, he consumed it and made it part of himself.  He gained the power and knowledge which Harry had.  When Harry ate the Nightmare, he regained his own power and knowledge, along with that which Nightmare had.  He proves this by using dark power and spells which he didn't know previously.  And he never releases that energy to reform as the Nightmare; he consumed it, used it, and apparently burned up whatever energy wasn't originally his until it was gone.

Darkhallow
I imagine the Darkhallow is more like how Harry & the Nightmare consumed each other.  The person that consumes the power of the vortex is taking in the power and knowledge of all of those spirits, and joining it to himself.  The difference between the two is location.  The Darkhallow ritual takes place in the real world by drawing ghosts to the real world and bonding them to a real body.  Harry & NM both created/attacked in pocket dimensions in the NN, which allowed them to attack and consume the pure spiritual energy of the other.  No vortex needed.

Death by Darkhallow
The way I reason out life in the Dresdenverse is that there are three parts: body, soul, and spirit.  The body is physical, and can die.  The soul is power/knowledge inherent to the individual, and is eternal.  The spirit is natural power tied to the magic field in the Dresdenverse.  It can contain some knowledge, but it's not all knowledge like the soul.  When someone dies, their soul would go on to whatever domain they associated with.  The body would break down, and rejoin nature.  The spirit would rejoin the magic field, unless a ghost is formed of it instead.  In traumatic death, the spirit doesn't rebond with the magic field because it's unsettled.  Instead, it retains partial knowledge from the soul, enough to retain part of it's old living identity.  When we see a ghost in the Dresdenverse, it's 100% spirit.  Except for Harry, who I think was a spirit/soul combo.  At the end, Harry's spirit was all but burned off, which is why Mort couldn't see him, but he still existed as soul.  And Mort can't see souls, because he couldn't see Harry or Uriel.

In this interpretation of mine, the Darkhallow would effectively rip the spirit from all of the living things in range.  The body would die, and I believe that the soul would move on like it normally would.  The spirit, instead of rejoining the magic field, would be merged with the Hallower's spirit, thus increasing their power.  Any significant knowledge would also transfer, although I think generic knowledge (like where an old lady keeps her spare key) would be disgarded by the spirit, and only be retained by the soul.

The reason I don't think the souls are consumed by a Darkhallow is simple: the post-life pantheons wouldn't approve at all.  If someone can steal another's immortal soul to power themselves, then that would really piss off the other Powers. 

Bob's Ride-along
We've also seen a form of spirit merging with Bob's ride-alongs.  In the Dresdenverse, I'm assuming animal's have souls, or at least some do.  Mouse would seem to have a soul.  Maybe Mister does, and maybe he doesn't.  Tara West wouldn't seem to have a soul, because there was no soulgaze; but that may be because she either has no soul, or it's so different from Harry's that there's no connection. 

So how could creatures without souls, ranging between animals and Fae, use magic?  Because they're mostly powered by spirit, which is the connection to the natural magic field thingy.  A Fae is probably mostly spirit, with either a fabricated or malleable body, and either little to no soul.  For Bob, he doesn't have a form, but the motes that make him are his body; it's just not solid enough to exist on its own.

When Bob goes on a ride-along, his spirit is temporarily bonded with that of the host; Bob can likely see the knowledge in them, and maybe even tap their power like Mort can.  But he keeps himself separate, without one consuming the other.  It's very similar to what Mort does.  The question is whether or not Bob could go on ride-along with Harry and take over, or if Harry could tap into Bob's power and knowledge during ride-along.  So it may be the same, and it may be different.

Creating a Mantle
I'm not sure about how to create a Mantle, since it's not fully understood so far.  It would make sense that a Darkhallow would create a massive spiritual power-up, but I'm not sure that there'd be enough of a singular identity to create a NEW eternal mantle.  I think in the DB Darkhallow, if the Erlking had been in the field, his power and mantle would have been pulled up along with everyone else.  In that sense, the Hallower would become the new Erlking, which would be A mantle; but I'm not sure if the new power would be given to the Erlking mantle itself, or if it would still be unique to the Hallower.  When the Hallower died, I'm not sure that the power obtained in the Darkhallow would go to the new Erlking.

I think Mantle creation would require more power than a Darkhallow, even on the scale we saw before.  Maybe I'm off base, especially if it does in fact consume souls.  But I imagine a Darkhallow Ascended entity would be near-immortal, with potential to gather further power to themselves, and eventually create a mantle. 

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2013, 12:23:56 AM »
Ah, your overlooking the incident I'm talking about, GS pg... 46? Right ofter Harry sinks into him, Mort calls all the guardian spirits at once increase his raw physical strength and probably willpower. They discuss it after and Mort says its sorta the opposite of an exorcism.

I tried to explain about the Mantle. Mantles WOJ are a living memory, ergo requiring human knowledge, The deaths are an event horizon, after their lives and Memory are magic they get wrapped up and weaved around the Mantle. I believe human death, on a large scale creates a significant enough impression to form a mantle around.

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2013, 01:10:48 AM »
OK, simplify... Living human memory(though probably skewed)of the DH aftermath + gathering the ghosts, magic and ergo memory of those who died in event= Thaumaturgical connection between them, solidifing the Mantle in existence. IDK about one point though, does his Mantle make him immortal or is it his command of Necropower? Theoretically just because you create or possess a Mantle doesn't make you immortal. Harry isn't, Hercules apparently wasn't, not all Mantles are immortals. Could be just what Mab says iirc, the power of a god weilded by Mortals for the first time, meaning free will, plus limits on the immortality.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 04:18:07 AM »
Ah, your overlooking the incident I'm talking about, GS pg... 46? Right ofter Harry sinks into him, Mort calls all the guardian spirits at once increase his raw physical strength and probably willpower. They discuss it after and Mort says its sorta the opposite of an exorcism.
We've got an example of consuming spirits and an example of borrowing spirits.  I don't know why you're relating a consuming spirits process, like the Darkhallow, to a borrowing spirits process, like Mort's "reverse-exorcism".  It seems easier to compare Harry's spirit consumption process to the Darkhallow consumption process.

Quote
I tried to explain about the Mantle. Mantles WOJ are a living memory, ergo requiring human knowledge, The deaths are an event horizon, after their lives and Memory are magic they get wrapped up and weaved around the Mantle. I believe human death, on a large scale creates a significant enough impression to form a mantle around.
Sorry, I'm not that familiar with that WoJ.  And I'm not sure we know enough about the creation of mantles to know how they are created.  I imagine there are multiple ways to create a mantle, but I imagine most exist on their own without the need to be created.  I think I remember a WoJ that folks can Ascend to demi-god status through a Darkhallow, but I'm not convinced (yet) that they are truly Immortal, in the sense that a Mantle would survive their death.  If Mab dies, someone else becomes the Winter Queen.  If Cowl had Ascended with the Darkhallow, but not obsorbed the Erlking mantle, then I'm not convinced he'd have an Immortal mantle. 

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 06:59:00 AM »
Quote
We've got an example of consuming spirits and an example of borrowing spirits.  I don't know why you're relating a consuming spirits process, like the Darkhallow, to a borrowing spirits process, like Mort's "reverse-exorcism".  It seems easier to compare Harry's spirit consumption process to the Darkhallow consumption process.
*Smacks head* Hence the adding of the evil tearing bit in my explanation. The similarity is gathering and holding of spiritual energy, specifically by excerting command to gather them. The important aspect is the commanding of them is a particular spell, an inverted exorcism. I'd WAG Kemmler started as a lowly ectomancer.

Quote
Sorry, I'm not that familiar with that WoJ.
Its in the KC signing, in the stickies.
Quote
they are truly Immortal, in the sense that a Mantle would survive their death.
I think creating a Mantle is easier than Immortality. From my reckoning, if say Molly was killed, she's immortal as the WL, Not only would the WL remanifest but>
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 07:05:17 AM by wizard nelson »

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 07:08:42 AM »
She would still be Molly, albeit slightly worn, underneath. Compare that with say Hercules who was never known as an immortal dies.(or the fey knights) WOJ is he left a Mantle, So whats different about the Mantles?

Offline TheCuriousFan

  • Special Collections Division
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 16609
    • View Profile
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2013, 07:52:37 AM »
Its in the KC signing, in the stickies.

Quote
*unintelligible question but you should be able to work out what it was*

Oh, am I going to explore where the mantles came from? Um, we’ll have to as we go on, in terms of, to a certain degree, some of them have always been there. If we're talking about mantles in There’s all kinds of them. It’s not just Faerie, they’re all over the place. There are still mantles hanging around from Greek times. Greco-Roman mythology, **unintelligible** mythology. The gods are also around, in one form or another, most of them are around. Some of them got themselves killed. Because lets face it, some of those guys were idiots.

And I mean, you go back there and read, and it’s like, how could you possibly have survived that? The answer in the Dresden Files is that they didn't. They *unintelligible* up til they died. Sorry, Hercules, you can only go slamming your head into walls for so long. And if your mantle passed on to The Hulk, it sort of exists in people’s minds and imaginations now.

Only the ones that have passed on to things like The Hulk.
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

If you want me to type up a book quote or find a WoJ quote, send me a PM.

Rest in peace mdodd.

Offline gotetsu

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 161
    • View Profile
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2013, 01:55:18 PM »
I still don't think every powerful being has to have a mantle, I don't think the Erlking is a mantle, I just think he is a powerful being. Why can't there just be powerful BADD@$$ out there?

Offline various

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2013, 12:36:39 AM »
actually The Erlkling is the goblin king, he gains power equal to that of the people who follow him. similar to toot and his growing size.

Offline peregrine

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 8736
    • View Profile
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2013, 02:25:15 AM »
That's not an unreasonable idea, but it's by no means confirmed.

Offline cedz

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2013, 10:09:21 PM »
actually The Erlkling is the goblin king, he gains power equal to that of the people who follow him. similar to toot and his growing size.

Well that's part of it. Remember he also ate a crap ton of spirits on various halloweens over the centuries which gave him serious personal power and was I believe also instrumental in the creation of his own Mantel.

Offline peregrine

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 8736
    • View Profile
Re: Morts secret, hallows and Mantles, Series spoilers.
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2013, 11:58:46 PM »
Also, a little bit of the Erlking is in every weapon used to hunt, so every kill gives him more power.