Dresden meets Fate Core

[Haru]

I think I would go a different approach. Might be simpler.

First, I like the distinction between will and focus. It's like the approaches from Fate Accelerated, which I really come to appreciate as an idea the last few days.

I would make magic a skill extra, meaning a character can take one or both skills will and focus to create magic effects.
Will is for flashy bits of magic, focus for delicate stuff.

Then you just take the 4 approaches:

Attack: Plain and simple: attack. Nothing with weapon rating, nothing with shifts of power, just roll as an attack like you would with guns.

Create Advantage:
Just as any other skill, with the exception that your "wizard" high concept allows you to do things with magic.

Overcome:
Pretty much the same as Create Advantage, no extra rules needed.

Defend:
Use the magic skill of your choice to defend against magic.

Shield:
Create an Advantage and use that to justify defending against physical attacks with your magic skills until someone removes that aspect.

Hexing:
Really depends on what you want to do. Mostly, this will be an Overcome or a Create Advantage action, but hexing high voltage stuff could become an attack as well.

Backlash and Fallout:
No need to count shifts of power and the likes. Just use the Outcomes. Instead of a failure, you go for a "success at a cost", and there you have your backlash or fallout, depending on how you apply the costs.

And that's pretty much it, 100% Core compatible and way easier to handle.

[Phantomdoodler]

Yes I tend to overcomplicate things.Having just play tested my rules, the players seemed overly keen to lay waste to their environment for a precious power bonus. So I am going to use your simple approach, and try something similar for thaumaturgy. Since its mentioned in the book, and I kind of like it, I am going to add that casting a non-rote spell costs you a point of stress. I will also allow a character to take a penalty to try to do something trickier. So effecting all targets in a zone is a -2 penalty. Making a veil one sided is a -2 penalty etc

[Haru]

Since its mentioned in the book, and I kind of like it, I am going to add that casting a non-rote spell costs you a point of stress.

Hadn't thought of that, but that's a nice touch, I like it.

I will also allow a character to take a penalty to try to do something trickier. So effecting all targets in a zone is a -2 penalty. Making a veil one sided is a -2 penalty etc

Makes sense. Though I wonder, is that something that Fate Core still does, or is it dealing with things like that in another way?

[Sanctaphrax]

I think I would go a different approach. Might be simpler.
...
And that's pretty much it, 100% Core compatible and way easier to handle.

I like this much better.

[Phantomdoodler]

Makes sense. Though I wonder, is that something that Fate Core still does, or is it dealing with things like that in another way?

Actually i think you may be right. Attacks and aspects can effect entire zones, but will effect you as well. I may go with a -1 penalty per zone of distance to the target. If you want to blitz a zone it will need to be at least one zone away. You can always split your results as well. Stunts is probably the way to go for selective zone-blasting magic 

[Haru]

I think a stunt would be best, yes. Zone attacks without a penalty and a stunt for selective targeting are both established in the Fate Core rules already.

[Phantomdoodler]

I think thaumaturgy needs some thought to keep things simple. In last nights game, a player , with time on their side, decided to create a ward. I used the dfrpg system since I hadnt fate cored it yet. This involved creating several aspects with rolls, working out the barriers strength and slowly gathering the power (which i didnt bother with). After 15 minutes it occurred to me that this kind of sucked. Without any real time pressure and a high Focus you could create a 100 pt ward that lasted for a millennium. Sure it may take a few hours to construct and maybe several minutes casting, but it would be easily possible. I am thinking of a something like this:

Thaumaturgy
Thaumaturgy is handled by a challenge involving a Lore action to build the construct and a Focus action to cast the spell. Assign a difficulty for the spell from Average(+1) for a minor ritual, up to Legendary (+8) or more for a heart- exploding type spell. As a guide, use the complexity ratings in the rulebook and divide by 3, rounding up. If you fail your Lore roll the spell cant be cast- you will need to start again from scratch next scene. You may choose to create an advantage to succeed at this roll, but if you fail, you must increase the difficulty by 2. Once the spell is constructed, the spell can be cast. If you fail this roll, you may take fallout or backlash. Rituals take a little while to cast. The difficulty of the spell represents the number of exchanges needed to cast the spell safely; you may reduce this number, but you must increase the casting difficulty by the same amount. If your ritual is disrupted, such as someone attacking you or breaking a circle of magic, you must immediately take mental or physical stress equal to the difficulty of the spell.The spell of course fails and is also likely to cause fallout to the surrounding area.

Harry is building a ward. He wants a ward strength of 10, plus a ward flame, and wants it to last a month. The Gm gives this a difficulty of Fantastic (+6) . His Lore is just +3 so he uses Resources to gain a ritual item, and Scholar to do some further research. These are both successful, so he rolls at +7. He succeeds and now needs to make a Focus roll; with a Focus of just +3, he is going to have his work cut out for him. After 6 exchanges, unsurprisingly, he fails but decides to take a consequence to have the spell cast successfully. With the ward in place he goes for a lie down to shift his migraine...

[Phantomdoodler]

Extra: Evocation
Permission: An aspect reflecting your magical training such as White Council Wizard or Focused Practitioner.
Cost: 1-2 Refresh

You may use Will or Focus to achieve magical effects. For 1 refresh cost you are a focused practitioner and are only able to use one element. For 2 refresh cost, you are able to use any 3 elements.

Overcome: Use Will to solve a problem with magic using brute force, such as blowing down a wall or jumping over a pit. Use Focus to solve a problem with magic using finesse and fine control, such as picking a lock or lighting a fuse. Counter a spell using Will, resisted by the Will of the caster.

Create an Advantage: Use Will to alter the scene or an individual with magic in an obvious manner, such as a wall of fire or quicksand. Use Focus to alter the scene or an individual with subtle magic such as a veil or changing the emotional mood. You suffer -1 for each zone of distance to your target.

Attack: Use Will to harm a target in a direct manner such as a fireball or force bolt. Use Focus to harm a target in a subtle way, such as removing air from their lungs. You suffer -1 for each zone of distance to your target.

Defend: Use Will to defend against a magical attack. Use Will to defend if you have an appropriate aspect in place.

Rote Spells: Choose a number of Rote spells equal to your Lore. If you attempt to cast any spell, other than a rote spell, you must take one mental stress. Each rote spell should have a name, preferably in a foreign  language.

Focus Items: You start with 2 focus item slots.

Stunts:

Sorcery Sharpshooter
When using magic at range, you may ignore the normal range penalties. You must still be able to see your target, however.

Arcane Refinement
Choose one element or type of thaumaturgy. You gain a +1 bonus to either Will, Lore or Focus actions, when casting magic of that type.

Reactive Shield
If you are attacked, you may make a Will roll to create a shield-based aspect on yourself, which you can instantly invoke if necessary.

Magical Thug
When making an attack with magic, if you take a point of mental stress your attack has a Weapon Rating of 2.

Magical Heavyweight
Requirement: Magical Thug.
Your magical attacks have a Weapon rating of 2. If you take a point of mental stress your attack has a Weapon Rating of 4.

Selective Targetting
When using magic, you may effect more than one target without having to split your result.

Smoke and Mirrors
When using spirit magic to create veils, you may take a point of mental stress to create a special effect such as a one way veil, a veil that only blocks against vampires, or a veil large enough to cover several targets without splitting your result

Magical Macgyver
If you have any focus item slots free at the start of a session, you may spend a fate point to assign them to a new item that you just happen to have on hand, or are able to create with a roll of duck tape and swiss army knife.

Arcane Arsenal
You start with an additional 2 Focus item slots

Natural Born Elementalist
You may use an additional 2 elements when using magic.

Walking Spellbook
You may choose an additional 2 rote spells

Dropping the M-bomb
When making a magical attack affecting an entire zone, you may take a point of mental stress to affect an adjacent zone.

[InFerrumVeritas]

My biggest concern with all of this is that it really takes away the drama of spellcasting we see in the novels, which I think the current system handles nicely.

[Phantomdoodler]

Well I have been running a campaign for a few weeks and the moment the players start to cast spells, everything tends to grind to a halt. Although the existing system replicates the books approach, I find it doesn't work in a roleplaying situation. The current magic system actually works on the reverse of the rest of the game. Normally you roll to see how you do at an action. With the current system the spellcaster decides what  result they want, and then tries to make that happen without blowing themselves up. In my experience, calculating power shifts really tends to cut the flow of the drama. With Thaumaturgy this is magnified, with everything turning into an accountancy exercise. Of course you may find thats different with your group - for me I realised I needed to do something and now having read fate cores approach, I am a convert. Since introducing magic as a skill roll, things seem to move on at a greater pace.

There are also some inconsistences with the books regarding magic though. I went through the books and most of the time Harry is able to chuck around 7 or 8 spells each scene without many problems. its only when he throws a powerful spell that he tends to get exhausted. Even then he seems to be able to channel his pain into casting a spell. With the current system, even with a huge Conviction score, you cant cast anymore than 4 spells without taking consequences - 9 spells would probably kill anyone who tried. This tends to make players reticent of casting spells in my experience. With the changes I have made so far, its giving them more confidence to get a little more dramatic, and I dont feel quite so bad throwing vampires or ogres at them, knowing that they should be able to get themselves out of a tricky situation with magic.

[Haru]

When doing a full Fate Core conversion, I wouldn't bother with elements any more. That's a thing for aspects now.

You are mentioning focus items a few times, yet you don't say what they are actually supposed to do. I wouldn't really bother with them, to be honest. Maybe make them a weapon instead, so when you are shooting magic with a focus item, it is similar to a gun. Or a focus item can be a stunt, for example a permanent justification to roll will for physical defense with a shield bracelet. Like your reactive shield, only without rolling to put an aspect up. The stunt pretty much is the aspect.


Thaumaturgy, to me, is very off the way you describe it. Since it isn't really a skill so much as a series of actions (not in the "the four actions sense, but a "first you do this, then that and so forth") you take, it can be a lot of different things, depending on what you want to do with it. It can be a simple overcome action, a contest, a challenge, or it may even become a full scene with a conflict and everything.

You want to open a lock? That's an overcome action.
You want to do a tracking spell? That's a chase, just with magic against athletics instead of athletics against athletics.
And so forth.

The ward you describe, to me, seems pretty boring. If the ward is never used, there is no need for it to even exist. If the ward is used, then someone is trying to get into your house, it is interesting, it is exciting, play it out. There is a "security specialist" stunt for burglary, that lets you get into active opposition if someone is trying to overcome a security system you installed. Why not do the same thing here? Just have an aspect like "this place is warded", and when someone is trying to get through, you make it a conflict wizard against intruder on the basis that so long as the wizard wins, the ward holds up.

And before you get into casting the spell and playing out what you do, you can prepare, create advantages that you might need. Some might even be required to just be able to do the spell. Like a symbolic link.

My biggest concern with all of this is that it really takes away the drama of spellcasting we see in the novels, which I think the current system handles nicely.

Really? I think the magic system in DFRPG is pretty clunky. You can still get a lot of drama here with success at a cost and the occasional compel, and those aren't just random things then, they'll mean something.

[Troy]

Is there anyway the two threads on this topic can be combined. I'm seeing good ideas, but they are expansions or refinements of the ideas in the other thread. Great intellectual food! Thank you guys!

[Phantomdoodler]

When doing a full Fate Core conversion, I wouldn't bother with elements any more. That's a thing for aspects now.

So do mean something like Master of Fire, Spirit and Air? Wouldn't that be more useful than a focused practitioner with just Master of Water?

You are mentioning focus items a few times, yet you don't say what they are actually supposed to do. I wouldn't really bother with them, to be honest. Maybe make them a weapon instead, so when you are shooting magic with a focus item, it is similar to a gun. Or a focus item can be a stunt, for example a permanent justification to roll will for physical defense with a shield bracelet. Like your reactive shield, only without rolling to put an aspect up. The stunt pretty much is the aspect.

I was going to keep it pretty much as dfrpg - each provides a bonus to Will or Focus with a certain element. But I can see a stunt may be easier.

Thaumaturgy, to me, is very off the way you describe it. Since it isn't really a skill so much as a series of actions (not in the "the four actions sense, but a "first you do this, then that and so forth") you take, it can be a lot of different things, depending on what you want to do with it. It can be a simple overcome action, a contest, a challenge, or it may even become a full scene with a conflict and everything.

You want to open a lock? That's an overcome action.
You want to do a tracking spell? That's a chase, just with magic against athletics instead of athletics against athletics.
And so forth.

The ward you describe, to me, seems pretty boring. If the ward is never used, there is no need for it to even exist. If the ward is used, then someone is trying to get into your house, it is interesting, it is exciting, play it out. There is a "security specialist" stunt for burglary, that lets you get into active opposition if someone is trying to overcome a security system you installed. Why not do the same thing here? Just have an aspect like "this place is warded", and when someone is trying to get through, you make it a conflict wizard against intruder on the basis that so long as the wizard wins, the ward holds up.

And before you get into casting the spell and playing out what you do, you can prepare, create advantages that you might need. Some might even be required to just be able to do the spell. Like a symbolic link.

Very interesting ideas. I think I would need to work through several examples to know how to do stuff.

[Haru]

So do mean something like Master of Fire, Spirit and Air? Wouldn't that be more useful than a focused practitioner with just Master of Water?

Wouldn't even go that far. For a focused practitioner, sure, that should be noted in the high concept, but it won't really make much of a difference, if a "Wizard of the white council" can wreck havoc in 3 or 5 elements. You might agree as a group in the beginning that the wizard who is "calm as the ocean" has problems with firemagic or the "hotheaded" apprentice will never do a good water evocation, but that's about what is necessary there, I believe.

[Phantomdoodler]

Ok, so the original evocation rules provide a bonus to one type of element. Rather than that, perhaps each spell caster may assign a +1 bonus to one or more elements, but must apply this total as penalties with the other elements.These would be based on the characters aspects, like you mentioned. Focused practitioners maybe get a +1 bonus to just one type of element but can only use that. So Harry gets a +1 bonus to using spirit, fire and air magic, but -3 to water. The same would be true of thaumaturgy. Harry gets +1 with wards and divination, but -2 to veils, or whatever.