[SERIES SPOILRS] Wow there is a lot to learn from some research on Tam Lin

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I thought there two aspects of the WoJ: 1) he's not a Greek god, etc, and 2) he's mortal.

In your spoiler at the top of the page you said the Grigori brought alcohol to humanity. Can I get a link on that?

[Griffyn612]

In your spoiler at the top of the page you said the Grigori brought alcohol to humanity. Can I get a link on that?

You or someone else mentioned asked someone else about that, and I went to find the page but couldn't find it.  I read about the Grigori on a webpage almost a decade ago, so I'm not sure if I'm mis-remembering about the alcohol, the page is gone because I can't find it, or the page was wrong to begin with.  I haven't found any other references to it.

[knnn]

I am aware of Nephilim-Wine connection, but it is a bit tenuous.  You need to put a couple of sources together:

1) The bible talks about a King Og who, according to some traditions was actually around during the time of the Flood (he hung on to the outside of the Ark, as he was so big).

"As the floodwaters swelled, Og, king of Bashan, sat himself on one of the rungs of the ark's ladders and swore to Noah and to his sons that he would be their slave forever. What did Noah do? He punched a hole in the ark, and through it he handed out food to Og every day. Og's survival is hinted at in the verse 'Only Og remained of the remnant of the Rephaim' (Deut 3:11)." (From Pirkei D'Rebbe Eliezer 23 as quoted in The Book of Legends edited by Hayim Nahman Bialik.)

Note: The text quoted is from around ~400 CE.


2) Og is known as one of the "Refaim", a race of giants who lived in ancient times.

3) "Refaim" and "Nephilim" are sometimes used to describe the same people in the various legends.  See here for an initial look.  Some say the "Refaim" were a subset of the "Nephilim" - who lived in a certain area (of which Og was one).

4) Among other things, Noah is known to be the first person to ever get drunk (see:  Genesis 9:20)

5) While most Jewish sources blame Noah's drunkenness on Satan somehow, there is a tradition that it was Og who somehow altered the wine to induce drunkenness (presumably until this point it was merely just a way of getting closer to god).  An example of that is here

"I am giving thy descendants two extra blessings," said Og, chuckling.

He rolled over and over on the ground in great glee and then said:

"When a man shall drink too much of the juice of the wine, then shall he become a beast like the pig, and if then he still continues to drink, he shall behave foolishly like a monkey."

And that is why, unto this day, too much wine makes a man silly.

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So:
Grigori --> Nephilim --> Rephaim --> King Og --> Noah --> wine.

Yes, it's a little involved, but there *is* a connection.  It would not surprise me to see other traditions where Grigori (or at least Nephilim) are somehow connected to wine/strong drink.  It was after all one of the traditional way of worshiping "powers".

[123456789blaaa]

So to recap, the evidence for Mac being a Grigori is:

They were known as "Watchers" and Mac was called Watcher.

There are subtle angelic references around him like the line "This was God's beer." in Small Favor after Mac came over to share a beer with Dresden & Murphy after she faced down 'Tiny'.

The Grigori disobeyed God because they mated with human women and fathered the Nephilim. This fits with Macs speech to Harry in Changes:

Mac folded his arms on the bar and looked at me intently and said, in a resonant baritone, “You’ve got to be very careful, Harry.” I looked at him, shocked. He’d . . . used grammar.
“Something like this will test you like nothing else,” Mac said. “You’re going to find out who you are, Harry. You’re going to find out which principles you’ll stand by to your death—and which lines you’ll cross.” He took my empty glass away and said, “You’re heading into the badlands. It’ll be easy to get lost.”

There is a link between Grigori and wine:

I am aware of Nephilim-Wine connection, but it is a bit tenuous.  You need to put a couple of sources together:

1) The bible talks about a King Og who, according to some traditions was actually around during the time of the Flood (he hung on to the outside of the Ark, as he was so big).

"As the floodwaters swelled, Og, king of Bashan, sat himself on one of the rungs of the ark's ladders and swore to Noah and to his sons that he would be their slave forever. What did Noah do? He punched a hole in the ark, and through it he handed out food to Og every day. Og's survival is hinted at in the verse 'Only Og remained of the remnant of the Rephaim' (Deut 3:11)." (From Pirkei D'Rebbe Eliezer 23 as quoted in The Book of Legends edited by Hayim Nahman Bialik.)

Note: The text quoted is from around ~400 CE.


2) Og is known as one of the "Refaim", a race of giants who lived in ancient times.

3) "Refaim" and "Nephilim" are sometimes used to describe the same people in the various legends.  See here for an initial look.  Some say the "Refaim" were a subset of the "Nephilim" - who lived in a certain area (of which Og was one).

4) Among other things, Noah is known to be the first person to ever get drunk (see:  Genesis 9:20)

5) While most Jewish sources blame Noah's drunkenness on Satan somehow, there is a tradition that it was Og who somehow altered the wine to induce drunkenness (presumably until this point it was merely just a way of getting closer to god).  An example of that is here

"I am giving thy descendants two extra blessings," said Og, chuckling.

He rolled over and over on the ground in great glee and then said:

"When a man shall drink too much of the juice of the wine, then shall he become a beast like the pig, and if then he still continues to drink, he shall behave foolishly like a monkey."

And that is why, unto this day, too much wine makes a man silly.

------------

So:
Grigori --> Nephilim --> Rephaim --> King Og --> Noah --> wine.

Yes, it's a little involved, but there *is* a connection.  It would not surprise me to see other traditions where Grigori (or at least Nephilim) are somehow connected to wine/strong drink.  It was after all one of the traditional way of worshiping "powers".

Is that everything so far? Also:

I've always liked the 'Mac as Grigori' bit. There are a number of, generally subtle, angelic references around him. One that stood out to me the most was the line "This was God's beer." in Small Favor after Mac came over to share a beer with Dresden & Murphy after she faced down 'Tiny'.

For reference, most of my understanding and reference for Grigori comes from modest theological study coupled with way too much love of In Nomine.

Can you recall any more references?

[Hollorr]

So to recap, the evidence for Mac being a Grigori is:

They were known as "Watchers" and Mac was called Watcher.

There are subtle angelic references around him like the line "This was God's beer." in Small Favor after Mac came over to share a beer with Dresden & Murphy after she faced down 'Tiny'.

The Grigori disobeyed God because they mated with human women and fathered the Nephilim. This fits with Macs speech to Harry in Changes:

There is a link between Grigori and wine:

Note: The text quoted is from around ~400 CE.


2) Og is known as one of the "Refaim", a race of giants who lived in ancient times.

3) "Refaim" and "Nephilim" are sometimes used to describe the same people in the various legends.  See here for an initial look.  Some say the "Refaim" were a subset of the "Nephilim" - who lived in a certain area (of which Og was one).

4) Among other things, Noah is known to be the first person to ever get drunk (see:  Genesis 9:20)

5) While most Jewish sources blame Noah's drunkenness on Satan somehow, there is a tradition that it was Og who somehow altered the wine to induce drunkenness (presumably until this point it was merely just a way of getting closer to god).  An example of that is here

------------

So:
Grigori --> Nephilim --> Rephaim --> King Og --> Noah --> wine.

Yes, it's a little involved, but there *is* a connection.  It would not surprise me to see other traditions where Grigori (or at least Nephilim) are somehow connected to wine/strong drink.  It was after all one of the traditional way of worshiping "powers".


Is that everything so far? Also:

Can you recall any more references?

I recall a thread that had alot of information about Grigori being mac...tho I can't remember which thread.

[madness]

Right after the release of Cold Days there was a good thread.