Author Topic: [SERIES SPOILRS] Wow there is a lot to learn from some research on Tam Lin  (Read 15051 times)

Offline Griffyn612

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Perhaps I'm thinking of something else, but weren't the Grigori cast out, as it were, not because of refusing to to get involved, but because they fathered the Nephilim? So, perhaps Mac does indeed have a child out there somewhere.

Slightly TT, so spoilerized, and I apologize if anyone is offended. 
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Offline madness

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The lore is varied and unreliable, so far as I can tell.

I could have sworn that I had heard a story about some of them failing in their duties as Watchers but not going so far as to interfere with mankind either.  That they basically lost interest in their duties and failed them but that they didn't really cross the Rubicon so they wound up in some sort of limbo (probably not a capital L limbo) while awaiting eventual judgement.

Regardless of which variation you based the theory upon, it seems as though it could be made to work.

Offline Phaeton Seraph

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Slightly TT, so spoilerized, and I apologize if anyone is offended. 
(click to show/hide)

Who do you mean when you say "the Church?"

IIRC, there is no direct Christian canonical reference to the Grigori, at least by name.  The Grigori were supposed to watch over Man and, I think, educate him in ways to keep him close to God. Remember that "watch" may mean more than to merely observe.

The reference to the Nephilim was in Genesis, part of the Christian Old Testament and the Jewish Torah.   The 5 books of the Old Testament were not altered (except by varying qualities of translation).   

Saying that "the Church" did this or that is not really possible in this context. 

The biggest source of angelic lore is probably the book of Enoch, which has been dropped from Jewish canon and mostly ignored by Christianity.

Edit:
There is a bare mention of a Watcher in the book of Daniel.  But no details as to what a Watcher is/was.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 05:17:07 AM by Phaeton Seraph »


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Offline Seidmadr

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I still prefer the Gregori angle.

There isn't enough evidence to prove anything one way or the other but until something else comes along I think that the Gregori theory is the most likely.

Angels already have a lot of restrictions on interfering.  An angel who 'fell' for refusing to get involved when ordered to do so and who was somehow pardoned seems like someone who might be REALLY restricted in their ability to take action or get involved in events.

Yeah. I like the Grigori angel... I mean angle too. After all, angels who fell because they liked the world too much, refused to return to the fold and whatnot. They taught humanity many strange arts, such as smithing, warfare, perfume, brewing...

Offline JeffVandenberg

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I've always liked the 'Mac as Grigori' bit. There are a number of, generally subtle, angelic references around him. One that stood out to me the most was the line "This was God's beer." in Small Favor after Mac came over to share a beer with Dresden & Murphy after she faced down 'Tiny'.

For reference, most of my understanding and reference for Grigori comes from modest theological study coupled with way too much love of In Nomine. :D
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Yeah. I like the Grigori angel... I mean angle too. After all, angels who fell because they liked the world too much, refused to return to the fold and whatnot. They taught humanity many strange arts, such as smithing, warfare, perfume, brewing...

I can't find info on them bringing knowledge of brewing. Could I get a link?
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Offline Seidmadr

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I can't find info on them bringing knowledge of brewing. Could I get a link?

Hmm. Now that you call me on it I can't honestly find where I read it. In retrospect, I think I might've mixed it up with the Egyptian gods and their connections to beer.

Pretend that I didn't say anything.

Offline madness

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Hmm. Now that you call me on it I can't honestly find where I read it. In retrospect, I think I might've mixed it up with the Egyptian gods and their connections to beer.

Pretend that I didn't say anything.

There are beings with links to brewing and beer in most cultures.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Hmm. Now that you call me on it I can't honestly find where I read it. In retrospect, I think I might've mixed it up with the Egyptian gods and their connections to beer.

Pretend that I didn't say anything.

*takes screenshot of quote*

>:D

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Offline Gman

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I thought WOJ was that Mac is a human. My guess is that he was a Knight or champion of someone or group. He probably had a mantle powerup and was able to get out of the mantle and has to remain neutral as part of him giving up his mantle and being allowed to live. My guess is he was a Winter Knight or Summer Knight.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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I thought WOJ was that Mac is a human. My guess is that he was a Knight or champion of someone or group. He probably had a mantle powerup and was able to get out of the mantle and has to remain neutral as part of him giving up his mantle and being allowed to live. My guess is he was a Winter Knight or Summer Knight.

Only from my really old ones that only exist in the form of a discussion about them with the link to the interview itself being long dead.
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Offline Hollorr

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I thought WOJ was that Mac is a human. My guess is that he was a Knight or champion of someone or group. He probably had a mantle powerup and was able to get out of the mantle and has to remain neutral as part of him giving up his mantle and being allowed to live. My guess is he was a Winter Knight or Summer Knight.
we can't trust OLD WOJ anymore.......even new ones may be false...lol

Offline peregrine

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I thought WOJ was that Mac is a human. My guess is that he was a Knight or champion of someone or group. He probably had a mantle powerup and was able to get out of the mantle and has to remain neutral as part of him giving up his mantle and being allowed to live. My guess is he was a Winter Knight or Summer Knight.
WoJ was that he's not a Greek God, or a handful of other things.  Doesn't mean he's human, just that he's not a small list of non-humans.

Offline Griffyn612

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WoJ was that he's not a Greek God, or a handful of other things.  Doesn't mean he's human, just that he's not a small list of non-humans.
I thought there two aspects of the WoJ: 1) he's not a Greek god, etc, and 2) he's mortal.

Offline madness

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He certainly isn't a vanilla mortal.

It would be pretty hard for a mortal who wasn't a wizard to live long enough to be known to so many of the ancient powers that have acknowledged him AND to be long since retired and still looking 40 something.

Personally I don't think that a retired Knight (of the Cross or of the Sidhe courts) would fit either though I am willing to admit that it is technically possible.

I still think that he is some sort of supernatural being that gave up his powers and is attempting to live a human life, even if he isn't technically a human.