Author Topic: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?  (Read 22558 times)

Offline Tedronai

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2013, 10:16:34 PM »
'collected examples and guidelines'
Those guidelines, tempered by the available examples, strongly suggest that this is one of those times when a limitation is necessary for balance reasons.
Unless you have an argument other than 'nuh-uh! the rules don't say I ALWAYS need to!'
If you do have such an argument, I'd be glad to hear it.
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Offline Lavecki121

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2013, 10:23:00 PM »
I edited my post. dont know if you saw that.

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2013, 11:36:15 PM »
'collected examples and guidelines'
Those guidelines, tempered by the available examples, strongly suggest that this is one of those times when a limitation is necessary for balance reasons.
Unless you have an argument other than 'nuh-uh! the rules don't say I ALWAYS need to!'
If you do have such an argument, I'd be glad to hear it.

Also none of those things seems to be for balance reasons, most of them are four narrative reasons. "Can I dodge with fists?" "Sure"; "can I dodge with guns?" "Do you have a gun?"; "can I dodge with performance?" "Are you an acrobat"; "Can I dodge with lore?" "Do you see the future?"

I can keep going. It's not a balance thing it's a why is this here instead of where it usually is thing.

Also I have not said this power is unbalanced mechanics wise but narrative wise I believe it is. You think that it is unbalanced mechanically so I was trying to offer you suggestions to fix it for when you wanted to use it.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2013, 07:17:00 AM »
This is a bit frustrating, really.

I know for a fact that A Few Seconds Ahead obviates oodles of character concepts. I've built a lot of characters, and I've frequently run into situations where it or a variant of it would be mandatory if I were optimizing.

That's bad!

Powers shouldn't be mandatory like that!

(The issue is especially clear to me because I was presented with more or less that exact situation with one of my first PCs.

And then people try to dispute the validity of my experiences, using nothing except poorly-reasoned theory. It's tiresome.

Anyway, let's look at some practical examples.

OW isn't exactly lacking in characters that should (from an optimization perspective) have A Few Seconds Ahead. Essentially all of its spellcasters are in that position. Many of them would remain in that position even if they weren't as incredibly un-optimized as they are.

If you consider non-Lore-based Powers along the same lines, then the list of OW characters who are fools not to have such a Power grows. Charity comes to mind.

And if you also consider Stunts like the ones Lavecki is proposing, then the list expands to include a whole bunch of mortals. Some of those cops could really use a better physical defence skill.

"See it Comming" You are good at predicting what people are about to do. You may defend against physical attacks with alertness as long as you can see them

"Honeyed Words" Most of your conversations lead people to believe you are honest. You may use deceit as a defense in social conflicts when incorporating lies into your conversation.

"Acrobat" You are skilled at moving your body in ways people dont expect. You may use performance to defend against physical attacks as long as you narate it colorfully.

Honeyed Words might be workable. The other two are too strong.

I remember I used to allow this sort of nonsense. But I saw the error of my ways eventually. You will too, if you keep fiddling with mechanics. Eventually stuff like this just becomes obvious.

Offline toturi

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2013, 07:44:00 AM »
This is a bit frustrating, really.

I know for a fact that A Few Seconds Ahead obviates oodles of character concepts. I've built a lot of characters, and I've frequently run into situations where it or a variant of it would be mandatory if I were optimizing.

That's bad!

Powers shouldn't be mandatory like that!

And then people try to dispute the validity of my experiences, using nothing except poorly-reasoned theory. It's tiresome.
You should look at it from my point of view. For myself, when I build characters, I optimise them and I have built a lot of optimised characters and continue to refine them even so, admittedly some of those characters are nothing but a list of canon Powers and a skill pyramid. And off hand, I can tell you, AFSA does not feature in about 80% of my top 10 Submerged optimised characters.

And I find someone using his wider experience at creating characters to invalidate my depth of experience at creating min-maxed, power gamed, uber optimised characters. It is so frustrating. I do not deny that AFSA is very good; if it wasn't, it wouldn't even be on any of my min-maxed characters. But when you compare the AFSA to the rest of the canon Powers worthy of inclusion in optimised characters, it is fighting other Powers and losing due to just that 0.01 point Refresh-effectiveness. If AFSA was really broken, it would feature on each and everyone of my min-maxed non-Pure Mortal characters.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 07:49:34 AM by toturi »
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2013, 08:40:13 AM »
You're right, that was rude of me. Sorry.

But I admit I'm a bit surprised to hear that you use it so rarely.

Perhaps it has to do with the type of characters you choose to build. Would I be correct in assuming that you don't build around concepts that aren't optimal?

Because if so, you might be discarding the character concepts that AFSA interferes with without even considering them.

The concepts that AFSA makes obsolete are (with a few exceptions) not impressively powerful. But in an AFSA-less game, they're at least not stupid. AFSA makes them straight-up incorrect.

My former PC Isaac Hall is a good example. He's not 100% optimal. But he can do things, and there's nothing in his build that's actually stupid. Except for him not having AFSA.

Do you get where I'm coming from?

AFSA makes so many interesting character concepts into suboptimal trap options. That's why I dislike it so much.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 08:57:50 AM by Sanctaphrax »

Offline toturi

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2013, 10:10:38 AM »
Perhaps it has to do with the type of characters you choose to build. Would I be correct in assuming that you don't build around concepts that aren't optimal?
Yes, while I do explore concepts that do not appear to optimal at first, once I have determined the concept to be sub-optimal, I store it away as another concept that just doesn't make Tier 1.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 10:35:29 AM by toturi »
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2013, 02:00:42 PM »
I once again find myself wondering what's so hard about the concept that players aren't going to build characters based solely on "What gets me the most bonuses?"

The thing about all of the powers in the game is that they have to make sense. Players are going to build based on character concept, and the vast, vast majority of them simply do not support A Few Seconds Ahead in a logical way.

No powers are mandatory. There's plenty of better ways to get similar or better effects than AFSA for any number of builds.
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Offline cold_breaker

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2013, 02:13:40 PM »
I once again find myself wondering what's so hard about the concept that players aren't going to build characters based solely on "What gets me the most bonuses?"

The thing about all of the powers in the game is that they have to make sense. Players are going to build based on character concept, and the vast, vast majority of them simply do not support A Few Seconds Ahead in a logical way.

No powers are mandatory. There's plenty of better ways to get similar or better effects than AFSA for any number of builds.

I agree with you. For the most part, arguing over game balance in FATE is kind of like arguing the correct pronunciation of ketchup. The result is going to be more or less the same no matter who's right. Making a min-maxed character is kind of boring any-ways, it's way more interesting to write realistic and interesting characters here. My general rule in Fate is - does this seem realistic to the story? If yes, then find the rules for it. If not, suggest something that is.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2013, 02:15:40 PM »
Yeah, character creation in this system starts with the template--you decide what kind of character you want to play, then decide on what powers fit that concept. It irritates me to keep seeing, "Well, everyone's going to take this power then." No, they're not. Because 99% of the builds don't logically support seeing the future.

If it were all and only about optimization, nobody would play a Pure Mortal. Hell, few people would play anything except a Wizard.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2013, 03:27:50 PM »
Quote from: Sanctaphrax
Honeyed Words might be workable. The other two are too strong.

I remember I used to allow this sort of nonsense. But I saw the error of my ways eventually. You will too, if you keep fiddling with mechanics. Eventually stuff like this just becomes obvious.

I know you have a reason for this but I dont see it. Would you mind elaborating?

Offline cold_breaker

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2013, 03:41:13 PM »
If it were all and only about optimization, nobody would play a Pure Mortal. Hell, few people would play anything except a Wizard.

Actually, I've been thinking of house ruling the pure mortal bonus - it seems like one of the few places where the system balance does discourage certain builds a little too much. I might give it some sort of scaling mechanic for higher refresh games...

Offline Tedronai

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2013, 06:29:26 PM »
The balance of the game as a whole begins to break down as refresh enters the teens, but yes, Pure Mortals are one point where it breaks down particularly severely.
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Offline Taran

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2013, 07:16:19 PM »
Actually, I've been thinking of house ruling the pure mortal bonus - it seems like one of the few places where the system balance does discourage certain builds a little too much. I might give it some sort of scaling mechanic for higher refresh games...

What do you mean?  Like give them a bigger refresh bonus as they progress up?

Offline cold_breaker

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Re: A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?
« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2013, 07:38:48 PM »
What do you mean?  Like give them a bigger refresh bonus as they progress up?

Either that, or more skill points at higher refreshes. E.g.

Pure mortal +2 - Add an additional skill point for every point of refresh you have before adjustments by stunts.