Purview of Evocation

[Troy]

Yes, indeed. Very well said.

Thank you!

[Sanctaphrax]

Eh, I don't like adjusting people's abilities based on what the rest of the group can do.

And while thaumaturgy is powerful, it requires a time-consuming ritual. It's not universally useful. (It does have balance issues, though.)

[Vairelome]

I think a good guideline is that magic can do anything that will keep the game moving and that another player hasn't already taken as a niche. Can you hex open a lock? Well if another player wanted to be 'lock guy' enough that he's got Burglary at Great, then no. If you don't have an understanding like that, the wizard can Thaumaturgy literally any problem the table has by using his Lore skill in place of *anything*, which is handy for a single protagonist of a book, but ball-hogging in a group of 4 or 5 players who are supposed to be more or less mechanically equal.

I think this is quite excellent advice directed at the player of the wizard, and if the player doesn't see this and is inclined to hog the spotlight, then it would be a good idea for the GM to talk to him privately and explain the thinking behind this point, which is that it's polite to share the spotlight with the other players.

Mid-game, I might be inclined to say, "Yes, you can do that, but it might have [realistic drawback]."  The drawback to the magical solution might be difficulty getting a proper link, time-consuming, or some type of undesirable side effect--hexing a lock might leave it inoperable later when you want the lock functional, for instance.  I wouldn't say this if a spell of some sort was legitimately the best tool available for the job.

[Wordmaker]

I'm a big fan of making sure that every character had their niche and can feel useful. While I wouldn't insist that certain abilities be used, I would be inclined to reward players who choose to restrict their character creation choices or in-game actions to allow other players a chance to shine.

Regarding the OP, I think figuring out ways to define how elements do things that aren't obviously a part of their purview is part of the fun of the DFRPG magic system. But I wouldn't have a hard and fast "Evocation is only a magic gun" rulings. Sure, it's nowhere near as subtle and refined as Thaumaturgy, but manuevers shouldn't be overlooked. You can do a lot with a maneuver.

Door's locked? Use a Fire Evocation to put the aspect "Melted Lock" on it, then tag that to kick the door open. I wouldn't allow Air to open a lock, because I can't see how there could be enough volume of air in such a small device to move the lock open without blowing the door apart. At the very least, I'd either require several additional shifts of power or put a penalty of the Discipline roll. Simply picking the lock normally would be a lot easier (and safer!).

[Troy]

See, I think part of my thinking when I originally posted my questions comes from the fact that I was reading DFRGP and FATE Core at the same time. I was mentally combining the refined Fate rules into the DFRPG and thinking about all the interesting things that Create Advantage can do when viewed through the lens of the Evocation Power.

Some of my mental exercises included (all temporary, of course):

Using an Air Evocation to place the aspect LIGHT ON MY FEET, which might help avoid danger or impress someone at a fancy soiree. Maybe Air can help you with the Aspect SOFT LANDING or CUSHIONED BLOW or maybe even CLEAR MY MIND. The book mentions you can use Earth Evocations to do the nearly the opposite. In an advantageous manner you can put IMMOVABLE or SURE FOOTING on yourself, but might put PLODDING or STUCK IN THE MUD on a foe using Earth Evocation. Emotionally, you might use Earth to put the Aspect UNMOVED on yourself or HEART OF STONE, since Earth is the Element of solidity, density and strength. Fire can be used for the obvious destructive things, but it might also be able to create the Aspect KEPT WARM or ILLUMINATED BY FIRELIGHT. It could be used to purge poisons from your body or something with the Evocation that creates a PURIFIED Aspect on an ally. Things like that.

I find it strange that some folks might not allow an Air Evocation to pick a lock. It says right in the book that you can do that because Air is the Element of find manipulations. When I think of telekinesis, that's what I think of. I know that Spirit is the Element of actually force: push, pull, throw, smash, hold. I don't think of it as being useful for fine manipulations. Air, being light and flighty, can move things with the dainty delicateness of a butterflies flight or the force of a hurricane.

I'm not at all interested in breaking the game or having Evocation replace Thaumaturgy. Thaumaturgy's advantages include more powerful effects, longer lasting effects, subtle effects, effects at a distance, etc. That's not even including all the summoning and crafting and all that other neat wizardry. When I think of Evocation I think: you can't hide this, no matter what. If you do an Evocation in public, people are going to witness it: a gust of wind, a bright glow, a flicker of flame, tremors beneath your feet, things like that. When you see it, you know you're in the presence of magic. There is no hiding, there is no subtlety in Evocations. With a Spirit Evocation to Veil yourself, you might vanish from sight but not in a sneaky way, so you better do it before the bad guys catch sight of you. On the other hand, a Thaumaturgy Veil can work like Harry Potter's Secret Keeper spell wherein, as long as no one tells anyone where you're hiding, you'll never be found. Things like that.

What do you guys think?


And again, thanks for your time! This discussion is really interesting and I hope I'm contributing as much as I'm getting in feedback from the rest of you!

[Haru]

I find it strange that some folks might not allow an Air Evocation to pick a lock.

When I think of Evocation I think: you can't hide this, no matter what.

The main difference between Thaumaturgy and Evocation, at least in my understanding, is how long you keep the power up. So Evocation can make a gigantic fireball, but it will puff in and out of existence in a matter of moments. Thaumaturgy can make the same fire, and even bigger, and make it last days or even weeks. Conjuring up a gale of wind is all well and good, but if you want to manipulate something like a lock with it, you will have to keep it up for a long time and control how it moves and everything. You could blow up the door with an air evocation and get through it that way. But picking the lock is far too delicate for Evocation.

Metaphor time. It's like when you take a big rock. You can pick it up and throw it, but the bigger the rock, the shorter you'll be able to throw it. However, you'll always be able to carry a rock much further than you can throw it. Throwing it will get a quicker result, but once it left your hand, you can no longer control what it does. Thaumaturgy lets you carry the stone precisely to where you want to get it, even if it might take you longer. And sometimes, you need it to go further than you can ever throw it, or you need it to fly around a corner, and that's where Thaumaturgy triumphs over Evocation.

[Lavecki121]

That's not how I see it though. With a book example, Harry was able to manipulate a bottle of liquor, without breaking it and without spilling. I believe that was an evocation. At least it was when I read it

[Haru]

That's not how I see it though. With a book example, Harry was able to manipulate a bottle of liquor, without breaking it and without spilling. I believe that was an evocation. At least it was when I read it

I don't remember a scene like that. Can you tell me which book it is in?

[Sanctaphrax]

I find it strange that some folks might not allow an Air Evocation to pick a lock. It says right in the book that you can do that because Air is the Element of find manipulations.

Making sense of this game often requires ignoring parts of the book. It's not the most consistent document.

This is one example of that. The book says that you can pick locks with air. But it also says that Evocation is for unsubtle thug stuff. And it says Evocation can only be used for four types of action. None of those action types works well for lock-picking.

Ultimately, you have to make up the rules for yourself to some extent. And as a general rule, the interpretation that makes spellcasting less powerful is the more balanced one.

When I think of Evocation I think: you can't hide this, no matter what.

Interesting interpretation. Not sure where you got it from, but I think it could work fine in play.

PS: I'm honestly not sure whether Evil Hat intended any form of emotional manipulation to be possible with Evocation.

[toturi]

Door's locked? Use a Fire Evocation to put the aspect "Melted Lock" on it, then tag that to kick the door open. I wouldn't allow Air to open a lock, because I can't see how there could be enough volume of air in such a small device to move the lock open without blowing the door apart. At the very least, I'd either require several additional shifts of power or put a penalty of the Discipline roll. Simply picking the lock normally would be a lot easier (and safer!).

Doesn't Air share electricity/lightning with Earth?

[Wordmaker]

Doesn't Air share electricity/lightning with Earth?

It does (heck, you could justify fire or even water making lightning if you knew enough about physics, I'm sure). I'm not sure how that relates to creating enough air to move the pieces of a lock, though. Can you clarify?

[cold_breaker]

As a note, in the Dresdenverse, Harry often talks about how the abilities of different elements is very much a belief thing. You really should be talking to your player and working out his or her personal interpretation of each of 4 or 5 elements - not necassarily the generic ones.

What I'm getting at here isn't to define custom elements, but to get into what the balanced domains of each element is. Is air about travel while earth is about blocking travel? is fire about strength or destruction, and is spirit therefore the opposite? Each mage charactor only gets soo many he's good with, so you need to figure out what those specialties are and are not if you want to get balance.

To use your example: I would allow air evocations to pick a lock - as long as I had discussed with the player that air was about openness and fine minipulation. In the same breath, it'd mean that player wouldn't be able to use air for brute force attacks - possibly manoeuvring and travel style stuff instead.

I would say though that there'd be drastic consequences to doing something with evocation rather than theumatergy - the lock would break, or it'd be big and messy in some way. It'd work in the short term very effectively, but long term there'd be consequences.

This is my interpretation though: you can use evocation any way you like, be it stealthily, brutally, cleverly, whatever. The result will always be very effective in the short term, but cause unintended consequences in the long term.

[Wordmaker]

This seems like a pretty vital step, to me. Each wizard's magic is clearly unique. There's no mechanical way to have Molly be so strong with veils and illusion yet so poor at brutal force and attacks, for example.

I think this figuring out of how a given character's elements apply, backed up with High Concept compels to represent the inability/difficulty of using magic outside of your own belief/aptitude, is a great way to handle things.

[Lavecki121]

I don't remember a scene like that. Can you tell me which book it is in?

Unfortunatly I do not remember the book. It was one of the later ones. He was doing magic in front of a PM in order to intimidate her. It was at an office. Sorry I will try and find it again.

[Haru]

Unfortunatly I do not remember the book. It was one of the later ones. He was doing magic in front of a PM in order to intimidate her. It was at an office. Sorry I will try and find it again.

Ah, I believe I know what you are talking about. The scene in Turn Coat, where Harry puts pressure on the lawyer that hired Vincent to tail Harry. I've read through it again, and he uses Forzare there twice, both in the purview I talked about.
First, he pushes open the door of the liquor cabinet, which is like what I descibed.
Then he tosses a bottle of liquor towards him. He doesn't let it float to him, he uses his magic to throw it towards him. Well within what I said, I believe.