Fists for Spell Control

[austiknight]

So a stunt that allows a character to use Fists (like a -bender) or Weapons (like some sort of swordmage) instead of Discipline to control Evocation; imba? Just interested in what others think.

[Tedronai]

I'm of the opinion that such stunts are generally under-powered, but I may be in the minority on that.

[Vairelome]

Actually, I agree with Tedronai.

The major mechanical advantage to skill-switching stunts is that they permit a wider array of trappings within fewer skill points spent.  In essence, you are trading refresh for skill points.  The most optimal use for these stunts is increasing the breadth of what you can do; the Footwork stunt that puts the Dodge trapping from Athletics under Fists instead is an excellent example of this.  For a build that has Fists as an apex skill and no Athletics at Submerged, you've expanded your combat options from +5 Attack/Maneuver and +0 Defense to +5 Attack/Maneuver/Defense.

Fists or Weapons can already be used to attack and maneuver (with one zone of range, for certain weapons).  Adding Evocation to the mix permits longer range attacks and much easier rationalization for a broader number of maneuvers, but for most purposes, Fists/Weapons and Discipline+Evocation have heavily overlapping combat functionality.  In other words, your proposed stunt has a much narrower degree of mechanical breadth than Footwork, so it is under-powered in comparison.

This is something of an extension of the idea that it's usually suboptimal to create a character with both Inhuman Strength and Evocation.  The two powers don't have any synergy, since they are mostly useful for attacking and can't be used together.

[Lavecki121]

There is a custom power that does this, I think it is alternate magical paradigm

[Magicpockets]

Depends a lot on the template you're playing and your DM's style. Mine heavily frowns on stunts, foci and powers that exceed the skill cap, and requires you to lower the base skill accordingly, so Evocation has become really lackluster.

Archetypes that come with both Strength and Evocation powers can really benefit from such stunts. E.g. Knights of a Faerie Court (if going by recent books) or Denarian-style characters (Shapeshifting Magicians).

What you should not allow is Athletics for Control. It can easily get out of hand with Speed powers.

[InFerrumVeritas]

It's fine as long as you don't have powers that interact with it (like the athletics and speed mentioned above).

We've got a character with the "Fencer" stunt that lets him use Athletics for Weapons attacks and maneuvers with lightweight fencing swords (like epees, small swords, etc. no more than Weapon 2). Another character took a "Fastball" stunt allowing attacks with ball shaped objects with Athletics.  Speed powers specifically don't interact with them for balance reasons.

These are significantly more useful than "Musical Magic," which one character has to allow Perform in place of Discipline and Presence/Social Stress for power (technically a power, not a stunt because it affects two skills).  Really, that should have just been free, but the other players objected.  It does give "emotional manipulation" at evocation's methods and speed as a consolation prize.

Ultimately, for Fists or Weapons I think it's worth 1 refresh.  The reasoning is that when you're done casting you can still fight with effectiveness at least as good as the Pure Mortal, but it's not over powered because you're duplicating trappings as mentioned above.

[Lavecki121]

Found it! Here it is:

ALTERNATE MAGICAL PARADIGM [-1]
Description: Your magic is different from everyone else's. Where most practitioners cast spells with mental strength and magical knowledge, you use other methods.
Musts: You must possess at least one spellcasting power in order to take this one.
Skills Affected: Any three.
Effects:
Alternate Magical Paradigm. Pick three skills. For the purposes of any spellcasting powers you possess, use the first in place of your Conviction, the second in place of your Discipline, and the third in place of your Lore.

[austiknight]

@Lav:
Interesting. Where's that from?
@ others: I thought double-dipping *might* be an issue, but it's true that you can't use them both at once. I'd be less likely to allow Athletics for magic, but idk...

[Vairelome]

@Lav:
Interesting. Where's that from?

If you scroll to the top of the DFRPG section of the forums, there's a list of child boards.  One of them, "DFRPG Resource Collection," has a bunch of threads that are dedicated to fan-made content for the DFRPG.  A lengthy thread near the top of that section (curated by Sanctaphrax) is called "Custom Powers Master List (Work In Progress)."  It's a massive collection of new powers created by members of this board, generally according to the guidelines for creating such in YS.  The quality of submissions is variable, but there are reams of ideas to browse through, some of which might be appropriate for your circumstances.

[Lavecki121]

Sanctaphrax also has a word document of all available ones. I feel he does a good job at organizing and balancing the powers. He is a great resource if you ever want to make your own powers as well.

[Haru]

I'd have no problem of allowing someone to use a different skill for magic, as long as a few basic rules are followed:
- there must be 3 different skills, don't roll everything into 1.
- it must make sense for the character concept. A kung-fu monk with fists-style magic? No Problem. Fists for magic, just because fists is a fighting skill in it's own right? Come on, you can do better than that.
- Specialization through refinement still applies, but no other benefits for the purpose of spellcasting. Yes, speed powers add to athletics rolls. No, it does not add to magic rolls, even if you use athletics for it. That's what refinement is for. The same goes for strength powers, you don't add strength stress bonus to a fists spell, that's just not how it works.

I wouldn't even charge refresh for it, since it could just be a different power with a different set of skills that just does the same as evocation and thaumaturgy.