Author Topic: Cloak of Shadows  (Read 9457 times)

Offline PirateJack

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1843
    • View Profile
Cloak of Shadows
« on: March 17, 2013, 04:15:49 PM »
So I've been hosting a game for a while now and have discovered how easy it is to abuse Cloak of Shadows (plus the dice hate my NPCs). So I'm trying to come up with ways to give my antagonists a chance to catch a Rogue-like PC without bullshitting their Alertness/Investigation up to insane levels.

Thinking on that led me to re-reading the Cloak of Shadows entry and brought me one important question. Does being able to see in the dark mean you can pierce the cloak's protection?
Quote from: JoeC
"Why are you banging your head against the wall?
'cause it feels sooooo good when I stop..."

Offline narphoenix

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2686
    • View Profile
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2013, 04:33:19 PM »
Have the PC face a wizard. Give the wizard cause to use the Sight. Have wizard blast away off of an easy effective targeting roll of 7. See how well the PCs fare.
GMing:

Paranet 2250

Avatar from Scarfgirl and TheOtherChosenOne of Deviantart

Offline PirateJack

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1843
    • View Profile
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2013, 04:54:31 PM »
Not a bad idea. I'll have to fiddle around some of the antagonists a bit, but it's certainly doable.
Quote from: JoeC
"Why are you banging your head against the wall?
'cause it feels sooooo good when I stop..."

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2013, 07:12:54 PM »
Using the Sight acts as a block against all actions equal to the power of the "thing" they are looking at.  While it does say that certain things can be made easier when using the Sight, like seeing a supernatural baddy manipulate shadows, the pure horror of that baddie may act to prevent the wizard from getting off a good shot.

I would say seeing in the dark *could* overcome Cloak of Shadows.  Best case scenario, the seeing through shadows negates the power and worse case scenario they can make an easy declaration to tag "can see in the dark" and tag it to overcome/neurtralize the +2 they get for hiding.

Is CLoak of Shadows really that powerful?  What's making the PC so strong is he's pumped all his skill into stealth. Besides after an initial ambush attack, if the PC is fighting multiple foes, he's screwed after he shows himself.
 
I'd think Glamours is much more powerful for that kind of stealth thing, which would let you veil yourself mid-combat.

Offline narphoenix

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2686
    • View Profile
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2013, 07:48:50 PM »
Nope. If you use the Sight to help direct something else, it does nothing of the sort. It says it in YS.

Besides, you don't need to have the Sight up for the entire fight. It just has to See someone in the shadows. Then, close the Sight, and go to town. The PCs may not even have a way of anticipating the attack, in which case, they're ambushed by a wizard. Magic blasting people during an ambush? Good luck.
GMing:

Paranet 2250

Avatar from Scarfgirl and TheOtherChosenOne of Deviantart

Offline Tedronai

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2343
  • Damane
    • View Profile
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2013, 07:57:20 PM »
If it was the Sight that was letting you see them, and you then close the Sight, you can no longer see them.  You're not going to have much luck 'going to town' on your once-again-effectively-invisible foe.
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
Slough

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2013, 08:44:57 PM »
Nope. If you use the Sight to help direct something else, it does nothing of the sort. It says it in YS.

Yeah, it sure will help with that awareness check, but it may not help with an actual attack roll.  If the person was completely spiritual or if you want to target something unseen, like a spell (which is the example in the book), then you could target it.  It doesn't make sense to me that you have a person "not hiding" and the Sight provides a Block, but when that same person chooses to hide, the Sight suddenly makes it easier to hit them.

quote YS 224:
For unrelated actions,
such as shooting a gun, driving a car, or drawing
a picture, the Sight is more of a distraction than
a helpful tool.
 

I'd equate targeting someone with an evocation to shooting a gun.

In any case, it seems unlikely A wizard is going to "just happen" to keep his Sight open.  What if that invisible person is a Skin Walker?  Sure didn't work out for Harry.  The wizard doesn't know what's hiding until he sees it, he may not want to risk it.

Offline narphoenix

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2686
    • View Profile
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2013, 09:06:18 PM »
If the PCs are unaware that the wizard used the Sight (why would they be?) they might not have moved to avoid the blow. I'm fairly positive the wizard can remember where a guy was not one half a second later. Especially since the Sight is a quite a bit memorable, apparently.

And the same page says that if you're using the Sight to see something and direct you, it doesn't hinder the action.

If a wizard is suspicious someone is around, the default is, apparently the Sight. When Harry feels a veil around him in TC, he goes for his Sight, Seeing the nagloshii. It's standard procedure for finding a veil, too, as in DB, Morgan uses it to scan McAnally's.
GMing:

Paranet 2250

Avatar from Scarfgirl and TheOtherChosenOne of Deviantart

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2013, 09:11:40 PM »
And the same page says that if you're using the Sight to see something and direct you, it doesn't hinder the action.

I pointed that out.  Except, in this case, what you're saying is if a wizard is using the Sight, a character is better off turning off their Cloak of shadows, because suddenly the Sight will cause a block against attacks whereas it helped the wizard with the CLoak was up.

D'you get what I'm saying?  I'm reading my sentance and it doesn't seem clear to me.

If the guy was using a veil, the Sight would automatically beat the veil and break the spell, but it wouldn't help the wizard target the person with an evocation.

Offline Haru

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5520
  • Mentally unstable like a fox.
    • View Profile
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2013, 09:44:23 PM »
Two things to keep in mind:
First, Cloak of Shadows is not Cloak of Invisibility. It makes it easier to hide in the shadows, but does not grant the ability to hide in plain side.
Any source of light will cut through the shadow with ease. The cloak does not create shadows, it uses them. Infrared detectors don't rely on visible light, shadows don't affect them. The same goes for magical detection, for example a web spell like Harry does in PG. There are a lot of things that can make life for a sneaky character complicated.

Second, if the Character has Cloak of Shadows, sneaking around is what he does. There is no reason why he shouldn't be good at it.
However, you don't always have to make a stealth vs. alertness roll and be done. You could also, for example, turn it around, if your character wants to get in somewhere. Give the target a security rating, like an alertness skill, and then add on a few aspects, each adding +2 to the rating. You can add fairly simple things. Good lighting, guard dogs, cameras, well drilled security personal, and so forth. Now your thief has to get around those things, either by creating aspects and adding them to his own roll, or by countering the security aspects.
Another way to make life harder for him would be to have him take someone with him. Sneaking in and out of places is a lot more difficult if one of you has no clue what he is doing. Or the other one doesn't fit through some of the narrow passages the thief is used to going through, so he has to work around them.

I'm curious, how exactly did your player abuse CoS? Can you give an example? Maybe there is an easy workaround.
“Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Offline narphoenix

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2686
    • View Profile
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2013, 09:47:21 PM »
I pointed that out.  Except, in this case, what you're saying is if a wizard is using the Sight, a character is better off turning off their Cloak of shadows, because suddenly the Sight will cause a block against attacks whereas it helped the wizard with the CLoak was up.

D'you get what I'm saying?  I'm reading my sentance and it doesn't seem clear to me.

If the guy was using a veil, the Sight would automatically beat the veil and break the spell, but it wouldn't help the wizard target the person with an evocation.

But the CoS person has no way to see if the wizard is using the Sight. From their poit of view, it just looks like he's looking mundanely. See the scene where Morgan uses the Sight in DB.
GMing:

Paranet 2250

Avatar from Scarfgirl and TheOtherChosenOne of Deviantart

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2013, 11:30:50 PM »
@Haru.  All good points.

@ Narphoenix:  I don't get what you mean.

The person with CoS has nothing to do with the Block that the Sight causes.  The wizard is being bombarded with colour and images and crazy stuff when using the Sight.  Assuming he makes his Lore check to know what he's actually looking at - he could be looking straight at the guy hiding and not understand what he's seeing - he still has to deal with the massive distraction that is opening his Sight.

Example:
2 people are hiding in the shadows, one is using CoS the other is using mundane means.

The wizard opens the Sight.  Let's say it causes him to resist vs a Good +3 difficulty and suffer a 3 shift block against all actions.  Assuming he makes his Lore to understand what he's actually looking at(and therefore spots them), Why would he get to ignore the 3-shift block while shooting the CoS guy and not ignore the block against the mundane guy?

My point, after saying all that, is that there are much better, safer and easier ways to counter the Super-Stealth guy than using the Sight.(see Haru's post)  That's all I'm trying to say.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 11:35:28 PM by Taran »

Offline narphoenix

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2686
    • View Profile
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2013, 11:50:53 PM »
Ok. Here's the question I'm trying to ask. Why would the wizard throw the Evocation while he's using the Sight? The CoS person has no way of knowing that the wizard is using the Sight to take advantage of it. Wizard can just See them, remember where they are, close the Sight, go to town.
GMing:

Paranet 2250

Avatar from Scarfgirl and TheOtherChosenOne of Deviantart

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2013, 12:01:43 AM »
Ok. Here's the question I'm trying to ask. Why would the wizard throw the Evocation while he's using the Sight? The CoS person has no way of knowing that the wizard is using the Sight to take advantage of it. Wizard can just See them, remember where they are, close the Sight, go to town.

Yup, that's true.  The Wizard would have to be suspicious enough to open his Sight in the first place, but once he did he could do what you suggest.

The PC could tag the "shadowy" aspect to compel the wizard to miss since they're still under the cover of darkness, I suppose.  Otherwise, once the guy is spotted there's nothing from keeping him from shooting.

@Tedronai:  How would you prevent someone from attacking a stealthed person once they've been discovered?  Would the GM just rule that they can't be targeted, or would it be the realm of compels - like I mentionned above?

@PirateJack:  I am curious, though, how CoS is overpowered.  Like Haru, I'm curious how it's been used in the game so far.

Offline Tedronai

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2343
  • Damane
    • View Profile
Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2013, 12:24:53 AM »
@Tedronai:  How would you prevent someone from attacking a stealthed person once they've been discovered?  Would the GM just rule that they can't be targeted, or would it be the realm of compels - like I mentionned above?

For the case of attempting to attack a known but currently undetectable target, I might have the established Stealth (or Stealth-substitute) of the target act as a block against the targetting roll, and have that roll modified by the Alertness (or, if appropriate, Lore) of the attacker.
Unless, of course, the attacker is using a zone-wide effect, in which case the defender is left with aspect invokes/tags to provide what they might.
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
Slough