Author Topic: Cloak of Shadows  (Read 7539 times)

Dr.FunLove

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2013, 06:37:39 PM »
I agree with you completely - all I've done is called attention to the rule on YS225 saying that the block can be waived if the action is cooperative. Clearly, this is rule with a lot of wiggle room and subjectivity.

You and Tedronai, for example, might not ever waive the block. I myself probably would, depending on the circumstance. As long as everyone has buy-in to which way you're going on a rule, there should be peace at the table and good will towards GM's. Right? :)

Offline Taran

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2013, 07:04:53 PM »
From what I've heard people say on these forums is there's too much leniency with the Sight.  A wizard with High Discipline has almost no problems with keeping his Sight open and resisting the mental damage.  With that in mind, there has to be some kind of draw-back because it's supposed to be an incredibly intense ordeal.  That's why I would almost never waive the block.  It should almost always be better to fight without having the Sight open.

Yes it'll bypass a veil - which is the advantage, at least you can hit the target, the disadvantage is the block.

Dr.FunLove

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2013, 07:30:37 PM »
I've noticed there certainly is that current here. Ultimately, these sorts of situations are up to the GM's discretion and what the table will support. It's in the rules to waive the block under a certain critera - if everyone can agree on that great. If the GM isn't buying it, then it happens. For me, if it was reasonable I'd allow it.

The rules support either point of view so in the end so it's up all of us to have a concenus in our games, be reasonable, and be fair.

Offline Taran

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2013, 07:32:35 PM »
Well it's pretty clear that waiving the block is the "exception to the rule" and shouldn't be done often.  And Cloak of Shadows is not one of those instances where you'd waive the block.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 07:40:51 PM by Taran »

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2013, 07:36:24 PM »
I'm not sure that's a really good...example? Why would placing a veil on a carrot just to see the carrot even happen? Just peel them, boil them, and throw some brown sugar on the whole thing...sheesh.  :P

Also, if I am reading correctly, your example is saying that someone would overcome the block aspect of The Sight by throwing a veil on something - in that case wouldn't they be casting the veil through the block? The two actions don't seem to be working together, in that case the block would apply. This is ultimately up to the GM of course - I would hope a table could agree on what constitutes cooperative actions with the Sight though.

However, if someone is attacked by an invisible force I would find it acceptable to open The Sight, identify said force, and then have the ability to counter it while the Sight is open without the block applying. Those two actions seem to cooperate to me and, per the rules, is allowable.

Do you have an issue with the cooperation rules? Do you believe the block should always apply?
You seemed to be arguing in your example that, because the vampire in question was veiled, and thus the sight allowed for easier offensive spellcasting against them, that such casting would not be affected by the block thanks to the 'cooperative' clause.
In my carrot example, I attempted to show the absurdity of that, particularly by way of the relative strengths of the blocks involved.
You say you would just tell the player to close the Sight and peel the carrot, but that just sidesteps the issue, rather than addressing it.  The two scenarios are essentially equivalent in all but seriousness.  In one you are peeling a carrot, and in the other, fighting for you life, but the issues involved are not meaningfully distinct for the purposes of this discussion.
If your response to one is rendered absurd by the other, than it is incredibly likely that it is absurd in both.
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Dr.FunLove

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2013, 08:00:10 PM »
@Tedronai
I get it. You think its absurd. That's...fine?

I'm not understanding what it is you're trying to say other than the rule and/or my interpertation of it is "absurd". I think the rule is pretty clear, it has room to wiggle, and is ultimately up to the GM/players involved.

Firstly, peeling a carrot is a pretty mundane activity. I'd probably just allow it without a block and have the player roleplay the trippiness etc of peeling a carrot while using the Sight. Now, for the sake of the discussion, I did say that if you were trying to veil the carrot to then peel the carrot without a block I wouldn't allow that. To me, that doesn't seem to jive.

 In the scenario where another being was veiled and you were attempting to see then attack that enemy I would probably/possibly allow it. The rules would support me either way I went.

Is your contention that the rule is incorrect or that the scenarios painted aren't enough justifcation for you or...what?

Offline Taran

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2013, 08:19:39 PM »

 In the scenario where another being was veiled and you were attempting to see then attack that enemy I would probably/possibly allow it. The rules would support me either way I went.

^This is the thing we're stuck on.

A wizard has the Sight up and is attacking someone.  The wizard suffers a 3 shift block for trying to attack with having the Sight up.

In the next exchange, The enemy throws up a veil and now you're saying that because there's a veil and the Sight helps peirce the veil, the wizard no longer suffers a block?  Why does having a veil up allow the wizard to bypass the block?  Last exchange he was suffering a 3 shift block against that exact same target!

The Sight is ONLY effective in peircing the veil...not in specifically targeting the target in combat - that's specifically is what the block is impeding.

Dr.FunLove

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2013, 08:31:46 PM »
Are the Sight and the attack working together in someway? That is the only question I need to ask myself to justify it systemically. Where one falls on that is up to them.

EDIT: Essentially what the rules say is that The Sight is up and there's a block on actions (because the Sight is problematic). The rules also say that, when the action and the Sight are cooperative the block goes away. So again, all I or anyone has to ask themselves is "are the two working together in some way".
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 08:35:58 PM by Dr.FunLove »

Offline Taran

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2013, 08:38:11 PM »
and in the example of someone hiding in the shadows they are not.

The Sight is working together with awareness to discover a hidden foe.  not with the attack.

Because if the foe were not hidden, how would the Sight be interacting with the attack?

And while you say it's GM fiat, that is just avoiding the issue at hand.  Can you use the sight to attack someone hiding with Cloak of Shadows.  The answer is yes, but it's unlikely to be the best method because you're likely to run into a block on top of the other crazy things that the Sight does to people.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 08:43:50 PM by Taran »

Dr.FunLove

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2013, 08:43:33 PM »
I see what you and Tedronai are saying. I just re-read the section again and I still feel that either point of view is justifiable. I would say if the ONLY way to interact with the being in question (veiled or cloaked) is by having the Sight active, and they have done so successfully, then I might not feel the need to place a block for other actions. I would feel the need for it to have narrative and roleplaying impact (since the Sight is still active).

EDIT: If everything was equal and one used the Sight and had no justification for why it shouldn't cause the block then it would...right?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 08:46:10 PM by Dr.FunLove »

Offline Taran

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2013, 09:02:43 PM »
but that's advantage of having the Sight!  Sure you have to deal with a block, but you're the only one who can even interact with the target.  What are the others supposed to do?  Don't you think having the Sight detect and attack untouchable enemies is powerful enough?  Why would you give it another advantage?

I'd be pretty annoyed as a player if, by putting all my ranks into stealth and becoming almost undetectable, turned into the reasoning behind a wizard zapping me unhindered.

My personal view for non-block situations:
In a non-combat situations where you're trying to untagle two types of energies or deal with a spell that's entirely on the spiritual realm, then I could see there being no block. 

Dr.FunLove

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2013, 09:10:50 PM »
I definitely see what you're saying there Taran. I definitely think that the rule for eliminating blocks isn't something to allow lightly. My main thing is, as long as you can get a concenus around the table the rules will support it. Don't want to hamper your stealth players? Then only in special or non-combat situations. Players want to go for broke with the Sight? Then allow it in any justifiable situation.

Player/GM buy in is the key - after that it's just gravy.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2013, 09:20:38 PM »
My main thing is, as long as you can get a concenus around the table the rules will support it.

This can be said accurately of ANY ruling on ANY issue.
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Dr.FunLove

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2013, 09:22:31 PM »
@Tedronai
Yep. Glad we agree on that.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Cloak of Shadows
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2013, 10:03:08 PM »
I'm not really sure you understand the implications of that for the purposes of a discussion such as this.


Such statements are utterly without value to pretty much any discussions other than whether it is 'ok' to implement houserules in your games.  For a thread discussing what the basic standard rules for the game are, unmodified by houserules, they are wholly tangential.
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
Slough