Author Topic: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?  (Read 56726 times)

Offline Wordmaker

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 917
  • Paul Anthony Shortt
    • View Profile
    • Paul Anthony Shortt's Blog
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #120 on: March 26, 2013, 05:56:00 PM »
I find I like to think of skill/weapon/stress ratings as not just a representation of literal ability and damage, but also of narrative relevance.

Michael Carpenter doesn't have a high Weapons skill just because he's a great fighter, but because his stories are about him fighting evil with his sword.

I apply the same thinking to stunts. Getting a +2 to Stress doesn't mean the weapon is doing more damage. It means that character's stories are supposed to feature them kicking ass with that weapon.

Offline Haru

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5520
  • Mentally unstable like a fox.
    • View Profile
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #121 on: March 26, 2013, 06:02:49 PM »
That's a great way to look at things.
However, how would you factor in the weapon ratings as they are listed in the book? Should a weapon do more damage, regardless of who holds it, or should it just be a justification to use one skill over the other?
“Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Offline S1C0

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 109
  • Don't worry about it.
    • View Profile
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #122 on: March 26, 2013, 06:09:21 PM »
fair point just sayin my opinion  :-X

i think who holds it justifies the skill but a cool weapon is still a cool weapon so both are mostly right is my thought
 cause a gun does not kill a person the aim and bullet do
Vae Victus

Offline Lavecki121

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1891
    • View Profile
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #123 on: March 26, 2013, 06:24:45 PM »
@ Death: I understand what you are saying and some of them are a little silly but the idea is that you have spent your time with that weapon, so it makes sense for you to do a little more damage than someone else. The Fists one gives you +2 against unarmored, most others only give +1 in a situation and this is only to damage if you hit. The restriction on a bonus to attack is still a situational bonus.

There shouldnt be a +2 to attack and damage every time. But it can make sense that you could get +1 to damage with this weapon because you have used it a lot and a +1 to attacks in a situation that has been thrown upon you. AKA: there is an aspect, scene or otherwise. Technically I could make the declaration outnumbered and tag it for +2 in a single round but its halving that for it to happen every time you are outnumbered.

Offline Wordmaker

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 917
  • Paul Anthony Shortt
    • View Profile
    • Paul Anthony Shortt's Blog
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #124 on: March 26, 2013, 08:32:21 PM »
That's a great way to look at things.
However, how would you factor in the weapon ratings as they are listed in the book? Should a weapon do more damage, regardless of who holds it, or should it just be a justification to use one skill over the other?

Personally I think certain weapons having higher Stress ratings fits the tone of The Dresden Files, so I like that a broadsword is more dangerous than a knife.

Spirit of the Century does away with weapon damage altogether. Doesn't matter if you're punching someone or shooting a rocket, all damage is based on margin of success. But for DFRPG, I want the story to also be about how an explosion is going to ruin your day a lot more than a kick in the stomach.

Offline Lavecki121

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1891
    • View Profile
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #125 on: March 26, 2013, 09:26:07 PM »
The damage is somewhat negligable too. The system makes it so that I can have a weapon 5 arm laser that can be hidden. So its not like having a weapon 2 with +1 to attack and damage is game breaking. Sure it doesnt fit the cannon 100% but thats more how you build your character than the systems fault. They came as close as they could. Its the same with most systems.

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #126 on: March 26, 2013, 10:09:54 PM »
To try and condense the discussion instead of replying individually to everything...

Thanks for that, it's convenient. I'll try to do the same.

I understand why you want to make weapon 4+ a rare and special thing. But the rules don't really support that. Getting weapon 5 is a trivial endeavour even going by strict canon. If you want to change that, you'll have to make some pretty extensive changes to the rules.

What weapon you use is not completely under your control. That's why you get a rebate on an IoP sword. If you want to change that you'll have to change around a few stunts, Item Of Power, and Crafting.

There is nothing anywhere in the rules that even suggests you can't have several stunts with the same condition.

I disagree with you about how the flavour of the novels. Partly because of what Kincaid does through mundane skill. (There are no known Powers for gun use, so his ability to one-shot Denarians is probably mundane. OW backs that up, though I hesitate to trust it.)

As for the ghoul example, there's nothing wrong with having people who've spent Refresh on fighting be better at fighting than those who haven't. But to characterize them as not spending FP is a bit sketchy since, well, stunts are basically spent FP.

Offline Mr. Death

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7965
  • Not all those who wander are lost
    • View Profile
    • The C-Team Podcast
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #127 on: March 27, 2013, 03:04:40 PM »
It's a trivial endeavor--if you're supernatural. For normal mortals, it requires access to military hardware, explosives, or hitting someone with a car.

What weapon you have is dependent on what the player decides to bring. If losing the weapon isn't a compel, then what, exactly, is stopping them from bringing it somewhere? If the player's put that much into the weapon--spending multiple fate points on just using it means they probably have an aspect about it, especially if it's an item of power--then it's worth a fate point for them to not have it. Why do you think Items of Power always require an aspect relating to them? Or powers having to fit the high concept? It's so that that aspect and concept can be compelled when they lose access to those powers for whatever reason, i.e., a wizard getting a compel in a deluge that his magic doesn't work, or a Faerie being unable to use his speed and toughness because he's surrounded by iron.

Nothing says so in the rules, but consider this: No two of the listed canon stunts have the same condition. The stunt rules are clear about not stacking effects--which tells me that they don't want more than one stunt applying in full to a single action. Having the weapon focus stunts means you are getting the full bonus (+1 to attack, +2 to stress), for one condition, on the same action, stacking directly.

Kincaid is hard to gauge because we never see into his head or, really, know what he's capable of. I've speculated elsewhere that he has some kind of "hunter" Supernatural Sense--maybe he can make special declarations or assessments on where to shoot things to make sure they stay down. Also, when he's one-shotting Denarians, that's with a high-powered sniper rifle from ambush--and I wouldn't put it past him to have gotten holy bullets from somewhere, come to that, or at least armor piercing rounds. So Kincaid can easily be doing it through ambush, declarations, and finding weaknesses instead of just a flat bonus to using his weapon. Or he might have a 6 in Guns normally. All in all, he's not a pure mortal and at least a couple hundred years old, so we really can't use him as an example of what mortals are capable of.

A better gauge for how pure mortals kill things with Guns is Murphy, in Aftermath--she attacks from ambush (i.e., the wizard's rolling from 0), she waits until he's in the middle of a spell (a declaration/assessment, boosting her already-high Guns stat), she's using an automatic weapon (so it's Weapon:3), she probably takes a navel-gazing maneuver or two if she has the time (I seem to remember a bit in the narration about steadying her breathing), and she unloads a burst at his head (either a declaration for a +2, or maybe a stunt with the attendant downside of going through ammo quicker). Her listed Guns skill is 4, but it's safe to presume she's boosted it, meaning it's her 5, +2 for the declaration, +3 for the type of weapon, +2 for navel-gazing, and +2 for the burst. Against a 0 roll, that's a solid 14 shifts of stress right out of the gate, way more than enough for a kill in a one-shot adventure like that where the odds are already stacked against Karrin and her player, even if the badguy's got Supernatural Toughness.

For the ghouls, that's the thing--the ghoul has also spent refresh on fighting. More refresh than a pure mortal at the lowest level has, as I recall.

By "spending fate points" I mean doing things like making declarations, boosting an individual roll, and invoking scene aspects. To my reading, stunts aren't supposed to replicate powers in form or function--there's not supposed to be a "family" of stunts with requirements and stacking bonuses, so much as a stunt is supposed to be a particular situation in which the character has a slight edge.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 03:13:06 PM by Mr. Death »
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Wordmaker

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 917
  • Paul Anthony Shortt
    • View Profile
    • Paul Anthony Shortt's Blog
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #128 on: March 27, 2013, 03:15:34 PM »
I'd be incredibly hesitant about applying compels to anything but Aspects. Aspects are the most important elements of a character; their driving narrative force. That's why Fate Points apply to them.

If a character has an Aspect relating to a particular weapon, then by all means fire off the compels where appropriate. But if Guns McShooter has to leave his weapons behind to get into a night club, he doesn't get a Fate Point. In fact, I'd be more inclined to use compels to make a character refuse to leave their treasured weapon behind, because that causes much more interesting problems than simply being at a tactical disadvantage.

The risk of losing a weapon or not having one to hand isn't a compel - It's the price you pay for the fact you got a Physical Stress bonus without paying Refresh for it.

Offline Mr. Death

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7965
  • Not all those who wander are lost
    • View Profile
    • The C-Team Podcast
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #129 on: March 27, 2013, 03:23:31 PM »
I'd be incredibly hesitant about applying compels to anything but Aspects. Aspects are the most important elements of a character; their driving narrative force. That's why Fate Points apply to them.

If a character has an Aspect relating to a particular weapon, then by all means fire off the compels where appropriate. But if Guns McShooter has to leave his weapons behind to get into a night club, he doesn't get a Fate Point. In fact, I'd be more inclined to use compels to make a character refuse to leave their treasured weapon behind, because that causes much more interesting problems than simply being at a tactical disadvantage.
Scene and location aspects apply just as much as character aspects. In this case, if it's a location aspect, it can cut both ways--the compel is that the place doesn't allow weapons, so the player has the choice of either going in with a tactical disadvantage when and if something breaks out, or the character brings the weapons in and complications result from that. In either case, it's fine to make a compel center around the character's equipment because the equipment has an effect on the scene through either its presence or absence.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 03:30:01 PM by Mr. Death »
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Wordmaker

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 917
  • Paul Anthony Shortt
    • View Profile
    • Paul Anthony Shortt's Blog
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #130 on: March 27, 2013, 03:27:31 PM »
In that case, you're compelling the scene's aspect, not the loss of a weapon.

I think that's an important distinction, because not every scene is going to have an aspect that's appropriate for this.

Offline Mr. Death

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7965
  • Not all those who wander are lost
    • View Profile
    • The C-Team Podcast
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #131 on: March 27, 2013, 03:30:27 PM »
My general rule of thumb for if something is worth a compel is if the character getting the compel will have a disadvantage equal to or more than if someone had spent a fate point against them. So a compel that results in a character performing at -2 to normal or worse for the duration of a scene (in this case, not having the weapon for which he has a cumulative +3 in bonuses) is fair. In effect, by taking away the weapon, you're preventing the character from using 2 refresh worth of stunts.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 03:32:02 PM by Mr. Death »
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Wordmaker

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 917
  • Paul Anthony Shortt
    • View Profile
    • Paul Anthony Shortt's Blog
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #132 on: March 27, 2013, 03:41:36 PM »
If I understand you right, you're compelling the fact that the weapon has been lost, not a particular aspect. While this is fine for your game, it is definitely a houserule, since compels can only be used on aspects.

For example, assuming neither the PC nor the scene had any relevant aspects, if an NPC disarms the PC or the PC gets in a fight and for whatever reason doesn't have his weapon, would you give him a Fate Point? If so, that's a houserule.

Ordinarily, it would be situations like a loved one being held hostage (compelling "I must keep my loved ones safe") where you could get compels going.

I don't know, I just think there are more interesting uses for compels than to offset a tactical disadvantage. "You dropped your sword, have a fate point" isn't as much fun, for me, as "I'm compelling your 'Wrong Place At The Wrong Time' aspect to say you're on your own with no backup when the terrorists take over the Nakatomi Building."


Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #133 on: March 27, 2013, 03:43:28 PM »
"disarming" a PC is the aspect.  It would be a maneuver that the NPC would place on the PC.  He would then invoke that maneuver aspect to have the PC lose his weapon.  This would be a compel that that the PC could refuse or accept.

Offline Haru

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5520
  • Mentally unstable like a fox.
    • View Profile
Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #134 on: March 27, 2013, 03:47:51 PM »
Personally I think certain weapons having higher Stress ratings fits the tone of The Dresden Files, so I like that a broadsword is more dangerous than a knife.
Right, I'm convinced. Thanks.

I think that's an important distinction, because not every scene is going to have an aspect that's appropriate for this.
If there isn't an aspect that can justify the loss of a weapon, why lose the weapon at all? The "something" that makes you lose the weapon can always be phrased as an aspect, I think.
I think I'm with both of you here. Giving up your weapon on the entrance to a club, I would not see as a compel. It's the players choice if he wants to go in without a gun or not. If on the other hand, there is something that makes him lose the weapon in the middle of a fight or he loses it on the way to a fight, without having a decision to give it up, I'd treat that as a compel.
“Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal