Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]

[Arjan]

but from this you consider the survival of homo sapiens to be more important then the survival of earth itself?

that's  a very... human... point of view.

Or maybe it is essential for the survival of earth that humanity does not. 

[peregrine]

but from this you consider the survival of homo sapiens to be more important then the survival of earth itself?

that's  a very... human... point of view.

But if your theory about magic and power is correct, that means that Mab needs us as much as we need to live.

[King Ash]

but from this you consider the survival of homo sapiens to be more important then the survival of earth itself?

that's  a very... human... point of view.

The term "evil" is a human point of view

[Ms Duck]

But if your theory about magic and power is correct, that means that Mab needs us as much as we need to live.

nope.

Magic comes from life in the DF, not people alone. Humans are just nice efficient crunchy snacks. We can know this because its very likely Dragons predate humanity.

[Arjan]

The term "evil" is a human point of view

Actually it is a very confusing word as soon as you get close to it. Sometimes it is just an us versus them label. If you say it is a human point of view do you mean humanity for us?

If you say us = this reality or us = intelligent life then you can get to a definition of evil that includes the Sidhe.

[Ms Duck]

Actually it is a very confusing word as soon as you get close to it. Sometimes it is just an us versus them label. If you say it is a human point of view do you mean humanity for us?

If you say us = this reality or us = intelligent life then you can get to a definition of evil that includes the Sidhe.

my definition of 'evil' is:

1) causing harm for the pleasure of it

2) having no concern for the harm you cause

Mab fits neither, as she pointed out to Harry about why he chose her in changes.

[matolilyfu]

but from this you consider the survival of homo sapiens to be more important then the survival of earth itself?

that's  a very... human... point of view.

But I am very human.  In the case of the DV, Harry is human,(or perhaps technically, a mortal wizard possessing humanity).  He's made it his life's work to protect less powerful mortals/humans from more powerful entities.  I'd speculate that protecting the Earth at the expense of humanity wouldn't be his idea of an acceptable outcome, either.

Harry and Mab now share a common goal, keeping the Outsiders, outside, contained inside Demonreach and defeating any who aren't outside or contained.  I'm fairly confident that their ideas about how to prosecute the "war" against the Outsiders would diverge sharply if the fate of mortals were to become involved.

my definition of 'evil' is:

1) causing harm for the pleasure of it

2) having no concern for the harm you cause

Mab fits neither, as she pointed out to Harry about why he chose her in changes.

The scene that makes me question #1 is from SK, after Mab causes Harry to put a letter opener through his hand -

Mab placed her gloved hand on my wounded one, and a sudden spike of sheer, vicious cold shot up through the injury like a frozen scalpel before lancing up my arm, straight toward my heart. It took my breath, and I felt my heart skip a beat, two, before it labored into rhythm again. I gasped and swayed,and only leaning against the door kept me from falling down completely.
"Dammit," I muttered, trying to keep my voice down. "We had a deal."
"I agreed not to punish you for refusing me, wizard. I agreed not to punish or harass you by proxy." Mab smiled. "I did that just for spite."

You may argue that Mab must make sure to seem all scary, but making Harry stab himself with the letter opener, and then causing his arm to twist when he tried to remove it, (which increased the magnitude of the pain), took care of that.  The bit at the end, the pain she inflicted for spite, the pain that made his heart skip a couple of beats, is where I see evil.

The idea about Mab "having no concern for the harm" she causes, is tough, because Mab's idea of harm is not the same as a mortal's idea of harm.  Things that mortals suffer at her hand, to her may simply seem like utility.  It seems that she's been preparing Molly to be something for many years, (without Molly's knowledge or consent, as far as we know), and presented Molly's fate as WL as a positive thing when speaking to Harry. When Molly faces her family, will she not experience deep pain and regret?  Is Mab concerned about Molly's pain and regret?  I don't think she is.

Of course, Mab doesn't see herself as evil.  I just happen to disagree.
 

[Arjan]

my definition of 'evil' is:

1) causing harm for the pleasure of it

2) having no concern for the harm you cause

Mab fits neither, as she pointed out to Harry about why he chose her in changes.

Mab hurting Harry out of spite in Summer Knight fits that definition though.
Torturing Slate might have some justifications and was not only done for the pleasure of it but pleasure was certainly aimed for as well.

Mab is not serving some abstract evil and her purpose is actually not evil at all. She does not asks her knight to be evil (he can sort that out for himself) and she does not go out of her way to do evil but....

She does not go out of her way to avoid doing evil and she sometimes finds pleasure in doing evil, causing harm and she certainly does not have any concern for the harm she causes while trying to achieve her goals.

[Mira]

Mab hurting Harry out of spite in Summer Knight fits that definition though.
Torturing Slate might have some justifications and was not only done for the pleasure of it but pleasure was certainly aimed for as well.

  It was a painful point, but she was out to prove to Harry that she indeed had power over him.

[KrelianZG]

I think it all depends on whether you think "evil" is a matter of behavior or nature.

For example, is sexual cannibalism in insects evil? After all, in humans, that behavior would make a woman a serial killer...

Despite her appearance, Mab is no more motivated by human ethics and ideals than those insects are. She may still have some human feelings, sure, but she doesn't operate on a level remotely similar to humanity.

[matolilyfu]

  It was a painful point, but she was out to prove to Harry that she indeed had power over him.

Having him stab himself was proof.  Making him hurt himself more instead of allowing him to remove the letter opener was additional verification - as if he needed it.  The heartbeat skipping pain was spite, not a lesson - Mab said so. 

She inflicted pain for no purpose, other than spite, on a weaker being, and to me that is evil.  Talk about Winter's nature if you like.  To me, the ability and willingness to inflict pain on another, who is weaker than you, for no purpose, is evil.  The fact that Harry was beholden to her when she inflicted pain in spite, doesn't make one whit of difference.  That's just abuse of position - hardly a sterling character trait.

[Ms Duck]

I see the letter opener as a spanking, really.

Harry got the message loud and clear.

slade was made an example of.

Am I arguing in favor of absolutism? Utterly not, I am of the bleeding heart liberal faction.

But if doing such things is evil, 95% of human governments in history are evil.

[matolilyfu]

I see the letter opener as a spanking, really.
Harry got the message loud and clear.
slade was made an example of.
Am I arguing in favor of absolutism? Utterly not, I am of the bleeding heart liberal faction.
But if doing such things is evil, 95% of human governments in history are evil.

Not really a response, but ok...

[tacorrific]

I don't think that Mab not just getting rid of Maeve shows a change in what she is.  Summer and Winter are opposing forces, but they have similar natures.  Tatania knew that something was up with Aurora but was unable to do anything about it just like Mab.  But Mab has seen what Aurora tried to do so she made plans to deal with Maeve if it ever got to the point of no return.  Even then Mab tries to give Maeve a choice to come back to her.  I think that Mab's reluctance to deal with Maeve has to do with the fact that she is her daughter, a connection that is hardwired into all living things.  In the end she allows what must be done to be done for the good of all even if she doesn't like it.

[matolilyfu]

But Mab has seen what Aurora tried to do so she made plans to deal with Maeve if it ever got to the point of no return.

I'm sure that the sense of balance the courts need was served by the fact that an ally of a representative of Winter "did the job".