Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]

[Ms Duck]

also, Mab became Queen of Winter 1,000 years ago. That doesn't say she wasn't Queen of Air and Darkness 1600 years ago, or maybe even Queen of Ghosts 500 years before that...

she may have been sidhe much longer then she was winter queen, ya know

[123456789blaaa]

also, Mab became Queen of Winter 1,000 years ago. That doesn't say she wasn't Queen of Air and Darkness 1600 years ago, or maybe even Queen of Ghosts 500 years before that...

she may have been sidhe much longer then she was winter queen, ya know

Well the WoJ implied that it was specifically the Fae Mantle that was causing her to "become the fun-loving Mab we know today" so thats why I was assuming it.

[matolilyfu]

Obviously to Jim Free Will is extremely important for examining good and evil in the Dresdenverse. I on the other hand to not even believe Free Will exists in RL. Obviously this means that my thoughts on good and evil are going to be very different than what I think is the objective truth in the Dresdenverse.

Basically, are you asking about my thoughts or what I think is true in the Dresdenverse?

I believe Mab is evil.  I believe that any human in DV who deals with Mab, and doesn't assume she is evil and behave accordingly, is making an error.  I'd be curious if anyone else agrees with me, of course.

But, what I was asking was in response to Ms Duck's statement -

Mab knows that if she fails, the outsiders will eat everything on earth. she will sacrifice herself and every soldier under her command to stop this.
the difference between a monster and a hero is what your are willing to die for.

- whether Mab, because of her purpose guarding the Gate, should be considered heroic if she dies pursuing that purpose?

[Duncan Cain]

Mab is not evil. She is just an firm believer in the statement “the end justifies the means”. In a way, she is like Marcone taken to extremes.

[Hollorr]

I believe Mab is evil.  I believe that any human in DV who deals with Mab, and doesn't assume she is evil and behave accordingly, is making an error.  I'd be curious if anyone else agrees with me, of course.

But, what I was asking was in response to Ms Duck's statement - - whether Mab, because of her purpose guarding the Gate, should be considered heroic if she dies pursuing that purpose?

Okay you "I'd be curious if anyone else agrees with me, of course." what if I disagree?
Well I see your point but I disagree on a few points.
In that case is beowulf heroic? or did he just go kill because thats what he did as a job?
I think it depends on what you think is heroic. Mab isn't a monster and she isn't a hero...I guess you would call her a kreia from starwars knights of the old republic.....if you don't know the game...Kreia is the mentor of the Exile in the game..she is 1 dark scary gray lady...don't mess with her.
anyway I believe mab isn't evil neither is she a good person....Mab is someone you need..doesn't matter if she is pure evil or good...seems like how Mab is played is something like a gray hero...like Batman or Green archer.

"Mab knows that if she fails, the outsiders will eat everything on earth. she will sacrifice herself and every soldier under her command to stop this.
the difference between a monster and a hero is what your are willing to die for."

hmm sounds like a hero turned into a rogue hero basically a Green arrow new tv show...willing to use anyone and ready to kill ppl.
A anime that is like this is called aesthetic of a rogue hero   here is a trailer for the anime if anyone wants to check it out.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E33-a0MQHC8

Anyway how to deal with Mab is like dealing with anyone that has power...you go in  with a calm mind and try to make a deal/make your case...if she wants you dead or out of the job there is nothing u can do.

[Ms Duck]

I believe Mab is evil.  I believe that any human in DV who deals with Mab, and doesn't assume she is evil and behave accordingly, is making an error.  I'd be curious if anyone else agrees with me, of course.

But, what I was asking was in response to Ms Duck's statement - - whether Mab, because of her purpose guarding the Gate, should be considered heroic if she dies pursuing that purpose?

--absolutely.

its a WAG, but I think Mab is going to die soon and she knows it. Molly was not intended to be the next winter lady; Molly is intended to be the next winter queen.

that, and arguments about 'good and evil' when dealing with gods tends to be a bit mushy, IMO. it all comes down to the person's perspective, and the person's opinion...

[blauregen]

I believe Mab is evil.  I believe that any human in DV who deals with Mab, and doesn't assume she is evil and behave accordingly, is making an error.  I'd be curious if anyone else agrees with me, of course.

According to various anthropocentric definitions, yes, she is definitely evil. She is likely heretical too, depending on your religious viewpoint.

[Hollorr]

--absolutely.

its a WAG, but I think Mab is going to die soon and she knows it. Molly was not intended to be the next winter lady; Molly is intended to be the next winter queen.

that, and arguments about 'good and evil' when dealing with gods tends to be a bit mushy, IMO. it all comes down to the person's perspective, and the person's opinion...

According to various anthropocentric definitions, yes, she is definitely evil. She is likely heretical too, depending on your religious viewpoint.

Then in that case....I say mab is good!...since most are gonna call her evil! EVIL I say....lol

[matolilyfu]

kreia from starwars knights of the old republic.....if you don't know the game...Kreia is the mentor of the Exile in the game..she is 1 dark scary gray lady...don't mess with her.
 gray hero...like Batman or Green archer.
Green arrow new tv show...
A anime that is like this is called aesthetic of a rogue hero   here is a trailer for the anime if anyone wants to check it out.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E33-a0MQHC8

Anyway how to deal with Mab is like dealing with anyone that has power...you go in  with a calm mind and try to make a deal/make your case...if she wants you dead or out of the job there is nothing u can do.

_{Oh Hollorr, I am so not cool.  DF is my first fandom obsession in many moons... (I have seen Batman and enjoy Green Arrow, but am a strictly a viewer - no deep meanings.)}

It would be easier for me to consider a Mab a hero for sacrificing her life and saving mankind, if saving mankind mattered to her.  I think if she needed the dead bodies of every man, woman and child on Earth in order to fulfill her purpose, she wouldn't blink an eye.  I don't think her nature includes any protective impulses for mortals, so saving them might be a by-product of her possible life-sacrifice, but isn't the goal.

[Duncan Cain]

Mab has an important job, keeping Outsiders on the other side of the Gate. The best way to do that is to be totally pragmatic and not let emotions sway her decisions. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I wouldn’t like to face an Outsider. Even one of the lesser ones (He Who Walks With His Foot Up My Behind??). Even Harry’s opinion of Mab has changed since he realized her purpose.

[blauregen]

Then in that case....I say mab is good!...since most are gonna call her evil! EVIL I say....lol

From a welfarist perspective, and assuming that being overrun by outsiders is detrimental for human (or sentient (or in the DV (soul-having (or insiders as opposed to outsiders))) welfare, this is a justifiable position too.

We really have to consider this from an in-universe-perspective, and for this we first to have to determine what kind of fiction we are dealing with. In many fictional works, there exists absolute good and evil. An example would be the Star Wars Universe. As long as a Jedi stays on the light side of the Force, it isn't really important how many people he maims or kills, how much corruption she enables or how many atrocities he commits. He or she is by definition a good guy.

I am not sure whether the DV falls into this category.

Form the author, I got the impression that the question is - in the DV - centered around the preservation of free will, which conveniently appears to be a unique property of humans and select ex-humans. If we restrict it to that, then Mab is evil simply because she acts evil in trying to subvert this, regardless of any greater utility she may achieve this way. She has no qualms about using humans as means to an end.

[huangjimmy108]

You're assuming that the current Mab is the product of all 1000 years. What if she becomes the Winter Queen, then 500 years of being the Winter Queen slowly smother her soul (down to either a small ember or nothing) then 500 years of increased interacting with mortals fans the flames until we get the current Mab.

I'm symplifying enormously here but you get the idea.

The problems with making such assumptions as you did is the side effects. If we apply your idea, it effects something else. That is the beauty of Jim's Dresden Files.

If we assume that Mab's soul could move up and down the spectrum from bright to dark during her tenure as the winter queen, you basically cheapens the corrupting power of the winter queen's mantle. Even the knight's mantle is already so powerfully corrupt as we saw in CD. The lady's mantle should be magnitudes more corruptive and Queens should be magnitudes more from the lady's.

If we assume that interactions with mortals could significantly brightens Mab's soul, and we must assume that it is significant because assumeing little will reduced the effect of moartal interactions itself, then we must assume that once upon a time Mab's soul is a lot darker than her current soul is.

If a soul that much darker than current Mab is redeemable, than the corruptive influence and the danger of total darkness becomes laughable. Even someone that is in deeper shit than Mab can be redeem, whats to worry about? And if Mab could move from a lot darker place to her current position, it will be easy for her to go fforewoard and brightens her soul even more. Why didn't she then?

You see how one assumption could open so many new can of worms?

[Mira]

  The problem is Mab cannot be all sweetness and light, that is for Summer.  Mab is not without feeling, in her own way she grieves for her loses and loves, but it is her way.  She heads an army that fights an eternal enemy.  An enemy that wants one thing and one thing only, to be inside.  It is an enemy who will take advantage of any opening it sees in a heart beat.  I don't think it an accident that the Outsiders made an assault on Demonreach at the same time Maeve tried to make her move.

[Arjan]

Mab is not evil. She is just an firm believer in the statement “the end justifies the means”. In a way, she is like Marcone taken to extremes.

Not true. Marcone is evil. He chooses to build an empire based on the misery of others and chooses every day to keep it running. Others may use it for their own purposes and some of these purposes may even be labeled a greater good but Marcone himself is evil.

You may call Mab evil depending on your definition and a lot of her subjects probably are (again depending on your definition) but with Mab you can go for alien morality or a goal oriented morality and decide she is not.

You can not do that with Marcone. His goal is simply power. His means are evil.

[Ms Duck]

_{Oh Hollorr, I am so not cool.  DF is my first fandom obsession in many moons... (I have seen Batman and enjoy Green Arrow, but am a strictly a viewer - no deep meanings.)}

It would be easier for me to consider a Mab a hero for sacrificing her life and saving mankind, if saving mankind mattered to her.  I think if she needed the dead bodies of every man, woman and child on Earth in order to fulfill her purpose, she wouldn't blink an eye.  I don't think her nature includes any protective impulses for mortals, so saving them might be a by-product of her possible life-sacrifice, but isn't the goal.

but from this you consider the survival of homo sapiens to be more important then the survival of earth itself?

that's  a very... human... point of view.