Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]

[Ms Duck]

Just realize.. there is at least a 10% chance harry is now Marcone's great great step granddad...

[KrelianZG]

Just realize.. there is at least a 10% chance harry is now Marcone's great great step granddad...

The idea of Harry using "yo mamma" jokes on Marcone has amused me since that idea first appeared.

I'd love a short story where Harry steps into Marcone's office and just says "Son, we really need to talk...."

[huangjimmy108]

Maybe it wasn't just Sarrissa, maybe it started long before Sarrissa was even born. We don't have enough information (also note that Sarrissa is her daughter. Perhaps that aided as well). I beleive it was stated that Mab has been Winter Queen for a thousand years?

Why does she have to want it?

How do you explain the clashing WoJ's and MW's statement?

How do you explain the WoJ?

Previous WoJ stated that Mab have no soul, that she is unchangeable. After CD, I think it is possible to question the validity of that particular WoJ. When text and Woj contradict each other, I usually side with the text. WoJ is just Jim's ideas that is not yet put into cannon. He have the right to changed his mind. What is absolutely cannot happened is text contradict text. That will show that Jim is ill prepared. Jim has never make this mistake before and I hope he never will.

So, it is possible, just possible mind you, that Mab can be changed. Maybe, it is even possible to rekindle her soul. According to Mother summer, change in immortals did happened and as we can see with Odin/Santa, such evolution did happened, but it takes a lot of time. Is Odin transforming into Santa is a soul changed or a mantle change is anyone's guess but change in immortals did happened, that is for sure.

I expect that Mab have to be willing to change. Changing a vanilla mortal without his/her consent is already hard. Trying to changed Mab against her wil will be impossible. I don't expect the rules in the DV is not to much different from the real world in this regard, so it is just simple sense.

I did not believe however that just Sarrissa and Harry is enough to changed Mab, not in such short a time and with so little interaction. Especially if Mab don't really want it. She told Maeve that fulfilling your purpose is not slavery, so I assume she is quite satisfied with her current circumstances.

[Gman]

Mab is a bit sweet on Harry. She hides it but Harry has gotten away with a whole lot more with less punishment than most anybody else I have seen dealing with Winter. Mab likes, respects Harry and trusted him to protect her daughter Salrissa besides wanting them to hook up.

[huangjimmy108]

Mab is a bit sweet on Harry. She hides it but Harry has gotten away with a whole lot more with less punishment than most anybody else I have seen dealing with Winter. Mab likes, respects Harry and trusted him to protect her daughter Salrissa besides wanting them to hook up.

Here is a quote:
“I thought Mab’s wrath was pretty bad until I found out what her affection was like.”

Mab''s idea of sweet is 77 attempted murder. See how much she makes the effort to prepare Harry? She probably believe that if Harry really dies in those trainning attempts it will be the best thing for Harry ever.

Same withhiring him to find the summer knight mantle in SK and when Mab takes away Harry's fire magic in Smf.

Mab is just taking good care of his most beloved Harry dresden.

[Gman]

Here is a quote:
“I thought Mab’s wrath was pretty bad until I found out what her affection was like.”

Mab''s idea of sweet is 77 attempted murder. See how much she makes the effort to prepare Harry? She probably believe that if Harry really dies in those trainning attempts it will be the best thing for Harry ever.

Same withhiring him to find the summer knight mantle in SK and when Mab takes away Harry's fire magic in Smf.

Mab is just taking good care of his most beloved Harry dresden.

Mab believes in tough love. I'm not saying Mab is all kind, sweet and lovey dovey with Harry. It is not in Mab's nature to be that way. I'm just saying she is nicer to Harry than how she treats others of his station. Look how Maeve was treating Slate. Mab was putting Harry in WK boot camp so he would survive confronting Maeve, her posse and the Outsiders. She was not trying to kill him. If Harry died in training it would be an easier death than in the field.

[Mira]

Mab believes in tough love. I'm not saying Mab is all kind, sweet and lovey dovey with Harry. It is not in Mab's nature to be that way. I'm just saying she is nicer to Harry than how she treats others of his station. Look how Maeve was treating Slate. Mab was putting Harry in WK boot camp so he would survive confronting Maeve, her posse and the Outsiders. She was not trying to kill him. If Harry died in training it would be an easier death than in the field.

  I think Mab respects Harry, but she will use him as she must.  Her nature is hard and sometime cruel, she shows no mercy, but that is what she has to be in the fight against the empty night.  Whatever "humanness" in her nature, whatever soul has been surpressed long ago by the task at hand.  Harry now understands that about her, Kringle reenforced that notion as well.  Mab realizes she can trust Harry so she allowed him to glimpse that moment of vulnerability after Maeve died in her grief.. However she cannot afford to have others view her moment of "weakness," so as Kringle said, never put her in that position in front of others, she'd tear him apart.  So has Mab changed?  Yes, in that she trusted Harry enough to let him see her weakness in a moment of pain.. And no, she still is the Queen of Winter and Darkness, the same cold hard bitch she always was, we and Harry now just understand her better.

[huangjimmy108]

Mab believes in tough love. I'm not saying Mab is all kind, sweet and lovey dovey with Harry. It is not in Mab's nature to be that way. I'm just saying she is nicer to Harry than how she treats others of his station. Look how Maeve was treating Slate. Mab was putting Harry in WK boot camp so he would survive confronting Maeve, her posse and the Outsiders. She was not trying to kill him. If Harry died in training it would be an easier death than in the field.

I don't doubt the effectiveness of Mab's method. Considering Harry's temperament , it is probably the fastest trainning method for him.

But I really won't assign the word sweet anywhere near Mab. She did not do all of that because she have any real affection for Harry. She did not do all that because she wanted the best for Harry. I don't believe that. She did all that because it is the most effective way to forge Harry into a weapon.

Slate may be a winter knight like Harry, but Slate is a Club while Harry is a sharp sword. Slate is a knight for intimidation while Harry is a knight for annihilation. It only make sense if Harry is trained differently.

No love for Harry, none whatsoever. Her vulnarable moment? Well, Harry already knows. That is why Harry could asked that particular question. There is no harm to reveal her vulnarability when no one else is around.

Why not train a knight like Harry all the time? Well, talent is hard to come by and a knight like Harry is quite dangerous. The queen is vulnarable against her knight so having a knight like Harry in peace time is stupid and dangerous. You only build a weapon when you have a target in mind. Especially if that particular weapon can be used against you.

[Mira]

Slate may be a winter knight like Harry, but Slate is a Club while Harry is a sharp sword. Slate is a knight for intimidation while Harry is a knight for annihilation. It only make sense if Harry is trained differently.

  Slate may have been used in that way, but Slate was a monster and a thug, where Harry isn't.  The difference is Slate's will was weak to begin with, so he was dominated by the mantle.. Slate as near as we can tell was an ordinary vanilla mortal before he wore the mantle so it presented all kinds of temptations in the direction of his baser nature, which he fully indulged in..  Both Mab and Maeve understood him very well and used his weaknesses against him.  While the sex act with Mab may have been a ritual necessity when Harry became Knight... Harry didn't become totally seduced and addicted to the pleasure no matter how incredible the act with Mab.. Simply because he understands what Mab is.  Maeve must have controlled Slade sexually and showed her lack of perception by thinking that she could seduce and control Harry in the same way, that of course backfired, because Harry also understood what Maeve was.  However, Slade a guy from the streets did become addicted, it was also one of the ways Mab tormented him after he was found out to be a traitor.

[Ms Duck]

In Harry's a sharp sword, slade wasn't a club. he was a toothbrush.

[Rasins]

I think folks took my statement incorrectly.  I do believe that Mab tried to find a solution to Maeve before deciding to have her removed.  I don't believe she wanted to have an experienced Lady replaced, be it her daughter or not.  I believe that as a tool, Maeve was probably pretty good at it until Nemesis got to her. 

Also remember that Mab couldn't confront Maeve about her infection until CD, because if she Nemesis knew that Mab knew, Nemesis would have done more to have Mab replaced.  Then again, maybe that is what the gambit on DR was really all about.  Getting someone to off Mab on Halloween, allowing Maeve to step up.  Only Mab had already seen it coming and put things in motion to allow for a smooth transition of power.  Having Sarissa hang out with Harry so she'd be in a position to receive  the WL mantle.  And having a back-up (Molly) in case that didn't work out. 

I don't believe Mab being there when it all went down was actually part of the plan.  I think Mab was saddend at the need to remove a good tool even more so than having her daughter killed.  The fact that it's a two-fer just confuses things.  "Mab would sacrifice everything in winter ... and not even have to add sugar to her tea..." is great, but it doesn't really mean that she wants to do it.  And anytime someone is of that mindset, they usually don't expect to send their own family to the front lines.

As to her soul.  I think she still has her soul.  But if you look at it as though it's on a spectrum from light (heavely) to black (hellish), her search for and grasping for power has pushed her toward the black end of the spectrum.  CAN she be bought back to the light end?  Probably.  But it'd take a GREAT DEAL of changes for it to occur, and according to the Mothers it would take a great deal of time.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Previous WoJ stated that Mab have no soul, that she is unchangeable. After CD, I think it is possible to question the validity of that particular WoJ. When text and Woj contradict each other, I usually side with the text. WoJ is just Jim's ideas that is not yet put into cannon. He have the right to changed his mind. What is absolutely cannot happened is text contradict text. That will show that Jim is ill prepared. Jim has never make this mistake before and I hope he never will.

As I remember there was some controversial problems with earlier book that bugs me, but I would have to look after them to get some proves. But one way or another as a good Catholic I decline sola scriptura philosophy and takes WoJ as part of canon itself Therefore I believe that Mab's behaviour in CD doesn't prove that she has her soul. She can have feeling - soulless doesn't mean emotionless, she can have memories of her mortal life. That isn't contrary to her mantle. After all in Winter lone wolf dies, but pack survievs. Winter is cruel, but it isn't mad cruelty. Maeve lost her soul too, but she didn't lose her feelings.

[Mira]

In Harry's a sharp sword, slade wasn't a club. he was a toothbrush.

No, ice pick..

[Veritas]

  Slate may have been used in that way, but Slate was a monster and a thug, where Harry isn't.  The difference is Slate's will was weak to begin with, so he was dominated by the mantle.. Slate as near as we can tell was an ordinary vanilla mortal before he wore the mantle so it presented all kinds of temptations in the direction of his baser nature, which he fully indulged in..  Both Mab and Maeve understood him very well and used his weaknesses against him.  While the sex act with Mab may have been a ritual necessity when Harry became Knight... Harry didn't become totally seduced and addicted to the pleasure no matter how incredible the act with Mab.. Simply because he understands what Mab is.  Maeve must have controlled Slade sexually and showed her lack of perception by thinking that she could seduce and control Harry in the same way, that of course backfired, because Harry also understood what Maeve was.  However, Slade a guy from the streets did become addicted, it was also one of the ways Mab tormented him after he was found out to be a traitor.

I doubt Maeve controlled Slate with sex. In SK, she used heroin to control Slate. I think those were  the type of drugs that Maeve and Mab used to addict him.  I always assumed Maeve was the type of girl who liked to tease rather than deliver 

[Mira]

I doubt Maeve controlled Slate with sex. In SK, she used heroin to control Slate. I think those were  the type of drugs that Maeve and Mab used to addict him.  I always assumed Maeve was the type of girl who liked to tease rather than deliver 

  She may have used heroin, but I think he was addicted to that anyway... However even if she didn't directly use sex herself, surrogates for her might have.  Remember when Harry and Billy visited her court under Chicago?  Maeve tried to seduce Harry using others of her court,  Harry ended up pouring a picture of ice water in his lap to keep from being seduced.