Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]

[Gman]

I think folks took my statement incorrectly.  I do believe that Mab tried to find a solution to Maeve before deciding to have her removed.  I don't believe she wanted to have an experienced Lady replaced, be it her daughter or not.  I believe that as a tool, Maeve was probably pretty good at it until Nemesis got to her. 

Also remember that Mab couldn't confront Maeve about her infection until CD, because if she Nemesis knew that Mab knew, Nemesis would have done more to have Mab replaced.  Then again, maybe that is what the gambit on DR was really all about.  Getting someone to off Mab on Halloween, allowing Maeve to step up.  Only Mab had already seen it coming and put things in motion to allow for a smooth transition of power.  Having Sarissa hang out with Harry so she'd be in a position to receive  the WL mantle.  And having a back-up (Molly) in case that didn't work out. 

I don't believe Mab being there when it all went down was actually part of the plan.  I think Mab was saddend at the need to remove a good tool even more so than having her daughter killed.  The fact that it's a two-fer just confuses things.  "Mab would sacrifice everything in winter ... and not even have to add sugar to her tea..." is great, but it doesn't really mean that she wants to do it.  And anytime someone is of that mindset, they usually don't expect to send their own family to the front lines.

As to her soul.  I think she still has her soul.  But if you look at it as though it's on a spectrum from light (heavely) to black (hellish), her search for and grasping for power has pushed her toward the black end of the spectrum.  CAN she be bought back to the light end?  Probably.  But it'd take a GREAT DEAL of changes for it to occur, and according to the Mothers it would take a great deal of time.

Look at Maeve's actions before she was taken by Nemesis. She gave he sister Salrissa a real hard time. She chose a looser WK (Slate). Look how she acted at her Court, torturing mortals for example. Mab does not go out of her way to be cruel. She lays the smack down on those who act against her. Not random cruelty. She gave Harry a hard time when he was appointed by Mommy Mab to find who stole the SK mantle instead of helping Winter and vindicating Mommy. In other words by Maeve's actions she was not doing a great job as WL. She was acting as a spoiled teenager when she is centuries old. I think Nemesis inflated Maeve's jealousy of Mab. Lea wanted to be cured and fought Nemesis, Maeve embraced Nemesis. I think Mab failed to discipline Maeve and spoiled her instead of making her a proper WL. Salrissa would have probably done a better job even though she didn't want to be WL. Molly will probably do a better job.

[Mira]

Look at Maeve's actions before she was taken by Nemesis. She gave he sister Salrissa a real hard time. She chose a looser WK (Slate). Look how she acted at her Court, torturing mortals for example. Mab does not go out of her way to be cruel. She lays the smack down on those who act against her. Not random cruelty. She gave Harry a hard time when he was appointed by Mommy Mab to find who stole the SK mantle instead of helping Winter and vindicating Mommy. In other words by Maeve's actions she was not doing a great job as WL. She was acting as a spoiled teenager when she is centuries old. I think Nemesis inflated Maeve's jealousy of Mab. Lea wanted to be cured and fought Nemesis, Maeve embraced Nemesis. I think Mab failed to discipline Maeve and spoiled her instead of making her a proper WL. Salrissa would have probably done a better job even though she didn't want to be WL. Molly will probably do a better job.

  As of Summer Knight she might have already been infected.

[Rasins]

In other words by Maeve's actions she was not doing a great job as WL.

Actually we can't really speak to that very much, not knowing what the actual duties of the WL are.  For all we know, her actual duties may have been to pop out some changlings and practice being cruel.

I think Mab failed to discipline Maeve and spoiled her instead of making her a proper WL. Salrissa would have probably done a better job even though she didn't want to be WL. Molly will probably do a better job.

See above.  That being the case, I actually agree with you.  I bet she hasn't been doing a proper job for quite awhile now, even before the Nemesis infection.

[Arjan]

  As of Summer Knight she might have already been infected.

very likely because It must have been the first thing the newly infected Lea did.

It is quite possible that Slate actually followed Maeves orders all the time or that Aurora was infected via Maeve.

[Gman]

  As of Summer Knight she might have already been infected.

Possibly, but if Maeve recently did a good job as WL then got infected before Summer Knight and then right after did an awful job and neglected her duties as WL it should have gotten Mab and Winter's attention that something was majorly wrong and Maeve was infected. I think Maeve was doing a poor job for a while and Nemesis just enhanced the negative aspects of Maeve.

[Mira]

Possibly, but if Maeve recently did a good job as WL then got infected before Summer Knight and then right after did an awful job and neglected her duties as WL it should have gotten Mab and Winter's attention that something was majorly wrong and Maeve was infected. I think Maeve was doing a poor job for a while and Nemesis just enhanced the negative aspects of Maeve.

  Possible, but not a given, remember that Mab was occupied with her own problems during SK, so she might not notice anything amiss with Maeve.  Though apparently Slade was chummy both with Maeve and Aurora.  Also Lea was still doing duty as Harry's godmother in SK, so though she was infected, she had already received the knife at Bianca's party, on the surface nothing seemed overtly wrong with her.  Now it is possible that Slade had gotten infected as well at some point and this led to his treason against Mab by the murder of the Summer Knight.

[Veritas]

  Possible, but not a given, remember that Mab was occupied with her own problems during SK, so she might not notice anything amiss with Maeve.  Though apparently Slade was chummy both with Maeve and Aurora.  Also Lea was still doing duty as Harry's godmother in SK, so though she was infected, she had already received the knife at Bianca's party, on the surface nothing seemed overtly wrong with her.  Now it is possible that Slade had gotten infected as well at some point and this led to his treason against Mab by the murder of the Summer Knight.

I don't think Slate was infected because if he was  would Mab allow him into her bower( implied sex by Lea in PG) and risk an infection? I don't think that would be logical. Also, if he was infected, and Mab was aware, I think it unfair that she would torture only him but offer help to Lea and Maeve. If this is the case, it seems to reveal a sort of "my knight is expendable but my fae kin are not."

[Gman]

I don't think Slate was infected because if he was  would Mab allow him into her bower( implied sex by Lea in PG) and risk an infection? I don't think that would be logical. Also, if he was infected, and Mab was aware, I think it unfair that she would torture only him but offer help to Lea and Maeve. If this is the case, it seems to reveal a sort of "my knight is expendable but my fae kin are not."

I doubt Slate was infected. As to punishment, Slate was a traitor. Lea and Maeve were kinda possessed by Nemesis. Not the same.

[huangjimmy108]

  Slate may have been used in that way, but Slate was a monster and a thug, where Harry isn't.  The difference is Slate's will was weak to begin with, so he was dominated by the mantle.. Slate as near as we can tell was an ordinary vanilla mortal before he wore the mantle so it presented all kinds of temptations in the direction of his baser nature, which he fully indulged in..  Both Mab and Maeve understood him very well and used his weaknesses against him.  While the sex act with Mab may have been a ritual necessity when Harry became Knight... Harry didn't become totally seduced and addicted to the pleasure no matter how incredible the act with Mab.. Simply because he understands what Mab is.  Maeve must have controlled Slade sexually and showed her lack of perception by thinking that she could seduce and control Harry in the same way, that of course backfired, because Harry also understood what Maeve was.  However, Slade a guy from the streets did become addicted, it was also one of the ways Mab tormented him after he was found out to be a traitor.

Think about it, Yeah, Slate is weak, he falls to the mantle and Maeve's ministration, but did Mab/Maeve hired him with the expectation that he will be a strong knight that is capable to control the mantle? If Slate is that weak, why is he is chosen to be a knight? Why is he not replaced long ago?

There is only a few likely answer for that question:

1. Mab miscalculated and Slate is not as strong as she expected.

2. A person of Harry's caliber is just so rare that Slate's weakness is just acceptable. Better a bad knight than no knight at all, Even though, Slate is weak he is still able to balanced the courts. He just have to exist and thats it.

3. Mab know Slate is weak and it is exactly what she wanted. After all, Mab is vulnarable to her knight and a weak knight is less dangerous. Things are good and well in winter and Mab have no need for a strong knight at the time.

Which of these reasons is more likely? Does Mab fails to see Slate's weakness or Is someone like Harry is just so rare that she cannot find a better replacement for slate, or Slate is just the kind of knight Mab wanted at the time. I personally think it is the third reason.

Harry is Mab's hand picked knight and thus she trained him personally. Extra hard. Because she have a special need considering the circumstances.

[Mortax]

Possibly, but if Maeve recently did a good job as WL then got infected before Summer Knight and then right after did an awful job and neglected her duties as WL it should have gotten Mab and Winter's attention that something was majorly wrong and Maeve was infected. I think Maeve was doing a poor job for a while and Nemesis just enhanced the negative aspects of Maeve.

The only thing that makes me hesitate to agree is this:
It's what, 4 or 5 years in between SK and Mab needing a translator? (Ie when she found out and became PISSED)  That is not a terribly long time.  It was about the same amount of time between that (her being pissed) and her telling Harry to kack her.  For an immortal, that's not very long.

[Mira]

1. Mab miscalculated and Slate is not as strong as she expected.

  But is this true?  I mean Sarissa states to Harry that Slade didn't begin as the weak thug/monster that he knew.  So can it all be blamed on the effects of the mantle?  Or were other forces at work here?  Aurora was mad and talked Slade into murdering her own Knight. How did this come about?  What persuaded Slade to even conspire against his Queen, Mab?   I do not believe these events all happened in a vacuum. 

Lea got infected by way of the knife,gotten at that infamous party that a lot of other supernatural powers were in attendance.  Contact with her and or the knife infected Maeve.  We have the word of Mab on that.  Contact with either could have infected Slade, he is a mortal so the effects of Nemesis might work quicker in him.  However that still doesn't explain Aurora's madness.  Did she just go insane?  Or was she also infected by Nemesis?  If so, how?  I submit that Nemesis was indeed behind it.

Who stood to gain if Mab went down?  And in her place a spoiled spiteful child to paraphrase Mother Summer replaces her...   Who is going to command Winter's Army against the Outsiders and guard the Outer Gates if Mab goes down?  An infected, spoiled, spiteful child, Maeve.

Summer is there to keep Winter in check, but not to defeat her..  So what were Aurora's motives for wanting Mab brought down?  Who stood to gain by that?  Outsiders, Nemesis.. So it stands to reason that Aurora was infected, she in turn came in contact with Slade and brought him into her conspiracy to over throw Mab..  How did that come about?  Did Slade routinely come in contact with the Summer Court? If not, who ordered him there?  If it wasn't Mab, it had to have been Maeve..  Maeve, who may very well have been infected at the time..  If she sweetened the deal with sex, in turn infected Slade..  Slade coming in contact with Aurora, in turn infected her.  She being mad, and Slade being mad, then conspired to kill her Knight and frame Mab for it.  Maybe that was the bigger game that Mab finally figured out, why she decided to kill her daughter rather than try to cure her like she did Lea?  Or was Maeve just too far gone?

[Arjan]

Mab clearly stated in summer knight that she had let Maeve handle the hired help. Bob told Harry the knights were like paper cups, discardable. Clearly under normal circumstances it was not that important who the knight was and Maeve could afford it the recruit a mediocre knight that functioned more as a plaything and as a prop for her image. Or to use Mabs words to indulge herself.

And it takes effort to get and maintain a good knight. Maeve is lazy.

But now Mab has work to do. We are near a crisis and Mab decided to wait years to get a knight with some promise. She took the knight from Maeve before she knew Maeve was infected. For that she has to handle Harry and if that means dredging up the remnants of her soul she will do so. It was never completely lost it was just irrelevant compared to nature and purpose.

[Mira]

Mab clearly stated in summer knight that she had let Maeve handle the hired help. Bob told Harry the knights were like paper cups, discardable. Clearly under normal circumstances it was not that important who the knight was and Maeve could afford it the recruit a mediocre knight that functioned more as a plaything and as a prop for her image. Or to use Mabs words to indulge herself.

  The bigger picture is, unknown to Mab at the time, Maeve was infected and began to conspire against her.  As we saw in CDs she was able to convince Lily of Mab's madness.. So somehow she managed to spread the infection to Aurora, who succumbed more quickly to Nemesis, who was willing to go along with the plot to murder her own Knight and implicate Mab, thus making Maeve the eventual Queen.  It was easy too, considering that Mab did let her handle things like her Knight, Slade.

[Arjan]

  The bigger picture is, unknown to Mab at the time, Maeve was infected and began to conspire against her.  As we saw in CDs she was able to convince Lily of Mab's madness.. So somehow she managed to spread the infection to Aurora, who succumbed more quickly to Nemesis, who was willing to go along with the plot to murder her own Knight and implicate Mab, thus making Maeve the eventual Queen.  It was easy too, considering that Mab did let her handle things like her Knight, Slade.

I think that under normal circumstances the ladies handle the knights because they are closest to the mortal world. Mab stepped in because it was needed even before she knew why.

[huangjimmy108]

Mab clearly stated in summer knight that she had let Maeve handle the hired help. Bob told Harry the knights were like paper cups, discardable. Clearly under normal circumstances it was not that important who the knight was and Maeve could afford it the recruit a mediocre knight that functioned more as a plaything and as a prop for her image. Or to use Mabs words to indulge herself.

And it takes effort to get and maintain a good knight. Maeve is lazy.

But now Mab has work to do. We are near a crisis and Mab decided to wait years to get a knight with some promise. She took the knight from Maeve before she knew Maeve was infected. For that she has to handle Harry and if that means dredging up the remnants of her soul she will do so. It was never completely lost it was just irrelevant compared to nature and purpose.

Which suggest that having a strong knight like Harry is at best unnessasary and at worst dangerous under normal conditions. Mab clearly did not care what kind of knight Maeve hired and after she finds out that Maeve hired a weak knight she did not intervened.

If this is true, what will happened when Harry is done doing Mab's bidding? When all the problem is solved and the situation is back to normal, will Mab consider Harry to dangerous to live? What do you do to your soldiers when the war is over and there is no enemy to fight anymore? What do you do to the only member of your court that you are vulnarable to?

Oh, Crap!