Sponsor Debt for non-spellcasters?

[Vargo Teras]

I've seen a lot of people express the opinions that Demonic Co-Pilot and Feeding Dependency are badly costed, and it's occurred to me (particularly since Cold Days) that Sponsor Debt looks very similar in a narrative sense, but is mechanically much more interesting. With that in mind, I propose the following as a possible replacement for both of the aforementioned abilities:

Beast Within [-1]
Description:A powerful force dwells within you, offering power at a price.
Musts:You must have an aspect, usually your High Concept, explaining the nature of your supernatural partnership. This is most common among vampires and shapeshifters, but various scions may also have an inner nature which tempts them with power.
Effects:
Draw on the Beast:You may take sponsor debt instead of spending Fate Points when invoking aspects. This may usually only be done when drawing upon your supernatural powers (e.g., a hexenwolf biting someone with its Inhuman Strength, a White Court Vampire luring someone with its ability to Incite Lust), but may also be used for other activities in line with the nature of your Beast (e.g., a hexenwolf using Stealth to stalk prey, a White Court Vampire using Discipline to resist a compulsion to stop feeding). Invocations of the aspect tied to this power are always applicable.
The Price of Power:When you acquire this ability, specify an agenda for your Beast. This agenda is not necessarily malicious, but it is inhuman; shapeshifters are pulled to follow animal instincts, vampires are driven to feed, etc. The debt you incur with this power may be compelled to force you to act on this agenda; as with any sponsor debt, refusing the compel does not resolve the debt. The debt may also be compelled to deny you access to your powers for a scene (although never Creature Features).
Ever-Present Threat [+2]:For some, the Beast does not lurk quietly until drawn upon, but constantly slavers at the gates of the mind. Choose which of your supernatural powers can be aided by your Beast (at least two points of Refresh worth); the first time in a scene you use any of those powers, you incur one point of sponsor debt without the benefits of a free invocation.

[Tedronai]

The ability to incur debt is not worth refresh.
It is, solely, wholly, and without exception, a particular manifestation of the compel and FP mechanics.
The more benefit one gains from use of the mechanic, the greater the price one pays for those benefits (in the form of more frequent and possibly more severe - in the case of escalation - compels).
It is entirely cost (and, inversely, benefit) neutral.

[Deadmanwalking]

What Tedronai said. Thematically, you need some sort of permission to take it (I recommend Marked By Power), and it's probably only available on some specific categories of action...but those are thematic limits no mechanical ones.

[Vargo Teras]

So if the baseline power is [-0], should the Ever-Present Threat add-on be [+1]? [+2]? Some fraction of the limited powers?

And the whole point of this is to model things which are not Marked by Power, but have currently written bad powers to model them. I have never heard anyone suggest that Demonic Co-Pilot or Feeding Dependency are things that someone should take; sponsor debt is very popular. This power is meant to model "sponsor" debt to an entity which is not an external force like the Summer Court, but an internal force like the demon inside every White Court Vampire, a highly personal sponsor that nonetheless gives power and demands payment.

[Lavecki121]

I think someone created a self sponsor, or maybe it was internal sponsor, I don't remember, it was on the custom powers list. If I find it Will post it here. Point is it might be close to what you are looking for

[InFerrumVeritas]

My group agreed to houserule "Marked by Power" to allow sponsor debt.  That way, it costs refresh (as the ability to spend "future fate points" is an advantage, but not a numerically quantifiable one), but is a rider effect rather than the one you're paying for.

[Lavecki121]

Found it, though not what I had thought it was:

SPONSOR [-0]
Your character is sponsored by a higher power.
Effects:
 Sponsored assistance: You may invoke an aspect in exchange for a point of debt to your sponsor, as per the Sponsored magic rules (YS288)

EDIT: There is also this, however I think it pertains to spellcasters:
SELF-SPONSORED MAGIC [-Varies]
Description: Either you've studied a branch of magic long enough to understand and use it intuitively, or you're a being of such singular power that a unique form of magic emanates from you.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Discipline, Lore, others.
Effects:
Self-Sponsored Magic. This Power is in all ways identical to Sponsored Magic, except that it lacks an external sponsor. The Compels resulting from the debt taken to fuel this power are therefore obviously not connected to any external agenda; instead, they are linked to your Aspects like normal Compels.

[Sanctaphrax]

And the whole point of this is to model things which are not Marked by Power, but have currently written bad powers to model them. I have never heard anyone suggest that Demonic Co-Pilot or Feeding Dependency are things that someone should take; sponsor debt is very popular.

Maybe you could just let anyone with an appropriate Aspect take debt.

If you do want to go with a Power, it should cost 0. Like Sponsor.

The list also has rewrites for Demonic Co-Pilot and Feeding Dependency. Use them at your own risk.

You could probably model Ever-Present Threat as a Limitation if you wanted to, but maybe it deserves to be its own Power. Regardless, I like the idea of taking debt to activate Powers.

[Magicpockets]

Isn't there a sidebox that reads "The dark powers are always willing to help"? AFAIK, it says you're allowed to take Sponsor Debt even if you don't have a sponsor right now.

[Lavecki121]

That's pretty much why the sponsor power is free.

[Tedronai]

Except for the part where even a -0 power is not, in fact, free.
A -0 power can, in fact, cost as much as 2 full refresh.
And the ability to receive compels is not worth 2 refresh.

[narphoenix]

Except for the part where even a -0 power is not, in fact, free.
A -0 power can, in fact, cost as much as 2 full refresh.
And the ability to receive compels is not worth 2 refresh.

But, if you are trying to get power from an external source, you are no longer a Pure Mortal and thus do not deserve the bonus.

[Deadmanwalking]

But, if you are trying to get power from an external source, you are no longer a Pure Mortal and thus do not deserve the bonus.

Yup. This. Marked By Power or Bless This House aren't worth 3 Refresh either, nor is Wizard's Constitution worth 2, but all thematically break you away from mortality, and allow other powers, and thus scrap your Pure Mortal bonus...because you aren't a Pure Mortal any more.

[Tedronai]

Their is neither solid thematic nor mechanical balance justification for Sponsor Debt to inherently 'de-mortalise' a Pure Mortal.
Thematically:
Sponsor debt does not inherently require the character to be in control of any power beyond that which is accessible to pure mortals.
Power exerted on behalf of a character is not power that character wields, nor do they necessarily even have any control over it.
Mechanically:
Invokes and Compels are already cost-neutral.  EVERY character is assumed to have access to Sponsor Debt if they have appropriate thematic justification.  This is explicit RAW.
NO power is necessary to access Sponsor Debt.

[narphoenix]

However, that's only temprarily. If you desire to have permanent well of Sponser Debt, you kinda do give up Pure Mortal status.