New Power: Return from the Dead, please review!

[Dr.FunLove]

When in doubt, Aspect up - tis a very elegant solution.

[Pantheras]

Ok, so what I'm hearing is that the game system provides so many options to avoid death, that it's not "worth it" to have a power that allows you to easily, regularly, return from death.  The ability to come back from the dead is better to have as an Aspect rather than to have as a Power.  And, that if it were a power, its Refresh cost should be low, to reflect how unimportant it is, or that it's already included in Superhuman Recovery.

I agree that coming back from the dead Should attract the attention of Powers - but maybe not if the character is of a Supernatural type that has this power inherently.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, that's pretty much the size of it. It's maybe worth -1 if it's got a real advantage of some sort.

Harry's death and return, specifically, were so difficult not because he died per se, but because it was a combination of paying off his various Sponsor Debts, and avoiding NPCdom by gaining much more power than his Refresh could support.

[Dr.FunLove]

Narratively speaking, Mab just really wanted a slice of Harry-pie...oh yea.

[Pantheras]

Yeah, that's pretty much the size of it. It's maybe worth -1 if it's got a real advantage of some sort.

lol, like not having to worry about dying?  Maybe this could be an add-on to Recovery, like
Cheating Death (-1). No "death" is ever permanent (even the utter destruction of your body) unless the means of your death satisfied your catch.

[Hick Jr]

You know what? I'm just going to post it.

UNDYING [-0]
Description: You do not die when you are killed.
Skills Affected: Endurance
Effects:
Deathless. Unless utterly destroyed or killed by special means, you can never suffer a fatal wound. No "death" result is ever permanent unless special means are used (as determined by your creature type).

It's a zero refresh power because you don't ever have to die. You can concede. Always. Unless you have a very hardcore GM.

[Quantus]

You know what? I'm just going to post it.

UNDYING [-0]
Description: You do not die when you are killed.
Skills Affected: Endurance
Effects:
Deathless. Unless utterly destroyed or killed by special means, you can never suffer a fatal wound. No "death" result is ever permanent unless special means are used (as determined by your creature type).

It's a zero refresh power because you don't ever have to die. You can concede. Always. Unless you have a very hardcore GM.

The difference being that his removes the "Utterly Destroyed" qualifier.  In his version you can be utterly destroyed and will just reform somewhere else more or less spontaneously.  But yes, when compared to that the -5 does seem excessive.

[Hick Jr]

I'm not saying that the ability to do phoenix-esque resurrections isn't a bad idea. But it makes more sense to couple Mythic Recover with Undying and just say "i can be blasted to ash and still recover". 5 refresh is laughably high.

[Pantheras]

You know what? I'm just going to post it.

UNDYING [-0]
Description: You do not die when you are killed.
Skills Affected: Endurance
Effects:
Deathless. Unless utterly destroyed or killed by special means, you can never suffer a fatal wound. No "death" result is ever permanent unless special means are used (as determined by your creature type).

It's a zero refresh power because you don't ever have to die. You can concede. Always. Unless you have a very hardcore GM.

Thanks, Hick Jr.   I found the page number.
http://vinlandsolutions.site11.com/Products/DFRPG/Powers.html

I find it strange that the power Living Dead is a -1 Refresh power, but this Deathless power is 0 refresh.  Living Dead prevents you from healing naturally and it screws with your ability to socialize normally - whereas Deathless has no associated drawbacks and yet is considered less powerful?

While I follow the logic that Because a player can always concede and thus avoid the death of their character OR a player can accept an Extreme Consequence and thus avoid the death of their character => Therefore "no permanent death" should not be powerful ... I don't agree. 

I mean, isn't the whole point of having Powers, Stunts and Skills to avoid Extreme Consequences and/or Concessions?  The reason we have Powers, Stunts and Skills in the first place is to attempt to convince the world that we are Right, to fight against the forces of darkness.

I would only accept this fan-written Deathless Power in my game if its refresh was increased.  It's more powerful than Living Dead (-1). Deathless allows the character to avoid death without suffering extreme consequences or making concessions, thus possibly avoiding two very important game mechanics.  Toughness allows you to avoid Physical Consequences, Deathless allows you to avoid Extreme Consequences and quite possibly having to make Concessions.  I feel that's a fairly powerful ability. 

[Pantheras]

The difference being that his removes the "Utterly Destroyed" qualifier.  In his version you can be utterly destroyed and will just reform somewhere else more or less spontaneously.  But yes, when compared to that the -5 does seem excessive.

Actually, I wrote -4 Refresh, but ... still, maybe that's a bit too much.     

[Deadmanwalking]

Corpse Body seems to be trumped by having any Recovery power...including Wizard's Constitution. Making its downside less than biting. Still, you may have a point, and actually being death-immune should be worth something. -1 is clearly around the right price if following that logic.

[Sanctaphrax]

PCs don't die very often. Spending Refresh on preventing something that probably won't happen once in a dozen sessions is kind of weird. So I think it's fair to give out immortality for free.

Also, death is just one of a bazillion nasty things that can happen to you. It's not necessarily permanent, and it's definitely not the worst fate possible in this game.

...Deathless allows you to avoid Extreme Consequences and quite possibly having to make Concessions.

No it doesn't.

I have no idea where you got that idea.

I find it strange that the power Living Dead is a -1 Refresh power, but this Deathless power is 0 refresh.  Living Dead prevents you from healing naturally and it screws with your ability to socialize normally - whereas Deathless has no associated drawbacks and yet is considered less powerful?

Living Dead is weird.

Its social effects are actually kinda useful, but it can be hard to work out exactly how they work.

Its healing drawback may or may not be trivial, depending on whether it works with Recovery and how hard your GM makes body repair.

And for some reason it doesn't prevent you from needing to eat and sleep and breathe. Apparently DFRPG undead can suffocate.

If you're interested in houseruling, you might want to try altering it. If you look at the list, you can find Semi-Animate near Undying. It's a Living Dead rewrite.

PS: Deathless and Undying are not the same.

[Hick Jr]

Argh. Sanctaphrax the ninja. I was about to ask what the hell you were on about in terms of Extreme consequences. Consequences are what you take instead of Conceding when you want to stay in the fight. Not to avoid being killed, which is the purview of Concession. I suppose a bloodthirsty GM might refuse a concession and try to perform a "death" take-out on you, which is uncommon to say the least.

[Pantheras]

You're right, Sanctaphrax, PCs don't die very often; it's the permanent loss of a character that's beloved.

And you're right Hick Jr, I was confused to think that a PC would take Extreme Consequences AND make a Concession.  What was I thinking?!  Both of those are ways to cheat death is my point, using the tools of narrative.  Knowing that you'll come back from death means you can choose not to take an Extreme Consequence and you can choose not to concede.

My "Phoenix Power" or whatever it is, was written to avoid using either of those narrative tools.  I cite the Malakim from the game In Nomine: warrior angels designed to fight and die rather than be captured or forced to surrender.  They might fight and die, but they come back (like The Crow) with a vengeance.

I -like- the idea of a character who will choose to die in combat, knowing that he is not shackled to this mortal coil, without having to make concessions or accepting an extreme consequence.  I'm not writing this Power with a GM in mind who's trying to kill the PCs left and right.  I write this with a GM in mind who wants to allow her player to play a former angel immortal who, well ... just can't truly die, no matter how many times he's tried.  (He also seems to die a lot, to a comical degree.)

Oh, and thank you, Sanctaphrax for the P.S. (totally, you're right.)  Sadly, your link doesn't work for me.

[Tedronai]

And you're right Hick Jr, I was confused to think that a PC would take Extreme Consequences AND make a Concession.  What was I thinking?!  Both of those are ways to cheat death is my point, using the tools of narrative.  Knowing that you'll come back from death means you can choose not to take an Extreme Consequence and you can choose not to concede.

At which point you're Taken Out, and your fate is in the hands of your opponent, subject to reason as overseen by the Table.
Just because someone takes you out, though, even in a physical conflict, doesn't mean they get to kill you.  With Undying, you've established the circumstances by which 'death' is a plausible result as being difficult to achieve.  Without it, that assessment must be done each time someone would have reason to propose 'death' as their preferred result.
All of that doesn't stop other Bad Things (TM) from befalling you, though, as a result of your unfortunate not-actually-demise.  Including those that could hypothetically make your character effectively unplayable while technically neglecting to 'kill' them. (take the classic, 'buried in several meters of concrete' solution to typical unkillable opponents; they're not dead, they're just not coming back)