Author Topic: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?  (Read 9371 times)

Offline Vargo Teras

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2013, 03:07:01 PM »
I feel like making Assessments part of the Channeling, thus requiring the expenditure of stress to obtain them, makes the power weaker than it should be. Otherwise, it seems balanced and hews fairly closely to the flavor.

Offline Crion

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2013, 05:15:26 PM »
I feel like making Assessments part of the Channeling, thus requiring the expenditure of stress to obtain them, makes the power weaker than it should be. Otherwise, it seems balanced and hews fairly closely to the flavor.

So nuke the Assessment part of Channeling, and you think Sorte would be good to go?
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Offline Vargo Teras

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2013, 05:48:20 PM »
So nuke the Assessment part of Channeling, and you think Sorte would be good to go?
Rather, say that as part of this power, the range of possible Assessments is expanded to cover anything that Sorte can see or affect, regardless of whether there's any contextual reason for it to be apparent.

Offline Crion

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2013, 05:52:47 PM »
Rather, say that as part of this power, the range of possible Assessments is expanded to cover anything that Sorte can see or affect, regardless of whether there's any contextual reason for it to be apparent.

Okay. Still leave it as Channeling then, or remove that cost?
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Offline Crion

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2013, 07:07:48 PM »
Okay, other things to look into:

Shamanism: Still to come.

Swordsman Schools: A later post, I promise!

"Special" Items:
Syrneth Artifacts, Twisted Blades, Glamour-Imbued items, Montaigne Puzzle Swords, Runed Weapons, Castillian Blades and Dracheneisen objects (among other "quality" objects) can use the Extras chapter from Fate Core or Item of Power depending on what it is.

For example, owning a Puzzle Sword would work best as an Aspect-Based Extra. It can be invoked for simple familiarity/quality on attack rolls, but it would also have one or two Aspects of it's own ("Ghost Hilt," "Hidden Clockwork Pistol," etc) that can be invoked for special effects.

A Castillian Blade (specifically, a Soldano Blade) would have aspects like "Well Balanced," "Sturdiest Blade of Castille," and/or "Sharpest Razor You'll Find."

Dracheneisen Weapons and Armor would just validate a reason to have higher Weapon or Armor ratings, but I would ensure that there is an Aspect around, or else it becomes "loot."

Some Syrneth Artifacts, Runed Objects and Twisted Blades ride the line of Enchanted Items and, depending on the effect, could even be an Item of Power. This one may be a play-by-ear, but personally, I'd set them up with a refresh cost equal to the necessary level of Refinement to cover the item slots needed. It'd be more limiting to use the Focus Items instead of the Enchanted Item slots.

For example, a Twisted Blade normally grants bonuses to attack and damage; pulling the notes from "Warden Sword" and granting it three uses of becoming a Weapon:6 for 2 slots would cost 1 Refresh.

For a shield with the Villskap rune, it could either act as an Item of Power granting a Breath Weapon or Channeling: Lightning (with points tossed in to use different skills for power/control), or it could act like Harry's Force rings (start at a low lore, perhaps around 2 for three times per game for 1 refresh).
"Smilies exist because no one has bothered to make a sarcasm font." Lost_Heretic
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Offline Vargo Teras

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2013, 07:51:17 PM »
Okay. Still leave it as Channeling then, or remove that cost?
Removing the cost; reading the strands is the baseline ability of a Strega, and shouldn't be deeply taxing.

As far as items of note: I agree that many items can simply be Aspects. I don't really like solutions that involve enchanted items, since I find them a kind of abusable sub-system; Item of Power is the better way to build such things. I don't think it's unreasonable for dracheneisen armor to effectively add Toughness to a normal suit of armor, or for a Twisted Blade to let the wielder move with what seems like Inhuman Speed.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 07:53:34 PM by Vargo Teras »

Offline Crion

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2013, 08:36:05 PM »
And now for Swordsman School Knacks!

I'm only looking at the KNACKS right now, not the actual abilities granted to each school (that will come up in another post). This will include knacks from schools in Cathay and the Crescent Empire.

Ambush: I think this is covered under the Burglary and Perception skills, as it just says you know how to spot or plan an ambus.

Arc: This increases the range of bows/crossbows, so I can see it is as either a Stunt (increase range by one zone) or just a maneuver.

Bear Hug: This is basically the grapple rules in a nutshell; nothing to see here.

Beat: This knocks the weapon out of the way when you attack. I think a maneuver should cover this well enough.

Bind: Basically, a "weapon grapple." I think either adding it to the Weapon skill trapping as a grapple (only for the opponent's weapon) could work. Otherwise, a Stunt that allows Weapons to be used as a Grapple, but only against the held weapon.

Boarding: This one needs ship combat rules to really work, as it grants a bonus to your boarding action (a combat roll). A stunt might work in this case, but it is hard to say.

Bob'n'Weave: This gives you a bonus when an opponent misses you. I think the current Spin rules (or, better yet, the new boost mechanic of Fate Core) fit this without the need of the knack.

Charge: This just lets your first action go sooner. Change a name of one of the initiative-based Alertness abilities and you're golden.

Claw Hand: An attack that, if successful, deals damage AND makes the opponent lose their next action. I think it's not a good idea for DFRPG and will throw it out.

Corps-a-corps: We've already discussed this one, as it's a punch that knocks you down. Allows the character to use the Weapons skill to initiate a one-turn grapple.

Conceal: Just a way to hide a weapon; I think we're good with the skill system as it stands.

Disarm: Simply removing a weapon from an opponent's grasp. I'm thinking of simple maneuvers here for the narration side. Any objections?

Double-Parry: Using both weapons to parry an attack. 7th Sea mechanics gave a temporary Drama Die for using it. I'm thinking it may be better to use the same name as a Stunt to grant a defense bonus when using two weapons (perhaps like two-weapon fighting, where 1/2 of the weapon value is given?).

Double-Attack: Attack twice when using two weapons. We already have a two-weapon stunt in DFRPG, so I think we're good.

Exploit Weakness: This one is a challenge. Do we keep it around as a stunt for each school to grant an attack bonus, or make it just a narrative tool and a compel of Aspects?

Feint: Like Beat, it's a way to get around a weapon and/or a parry. I'd stick with maneuvers here. But, I'd be okay with the idea of offering the Feint Stunt that gives a bonus to creating maneuvers using the Weapon skill.

Fortitude: This knack lets you take hits better. I think we're covered with how the rest of the DFRPG already works.

Hook: This adds a bonus to hit with a Panzerhand. I don't think we really need it in the DFRPG.

Horse Archery: This is used when using a bow on horseback. I think making it a stunt to allow this task to be done should be sufficient.

Lance: This knack is used for using a polearm in mounted combat. I'm okay with ignoring it, unless you think there should be a Mounted Combat stunt tossed in.

Lunge: An old favourite of mine. You attack with disregard to defense to deal more damage. I can see it being a maneuver, but I'd loved to see a mechanic representation of this. Perhaps a weapons-grade "Killer Blows"?

Missile Defense: In 7th Sea, this was used to dodge thrown weapons. Moot point since we have Athletics.

Orders: This was for mass combat, specifically granting a bonus for one tactic. I doubt it will come up in DFRPG, but if it does, we can easily make it a Presence based stunt.

Pin (Knife): The whole idea of throwing a knife and pinning someone to the wall. I think this would simply be a stunt to "Use Weapons to Initiate a Grapple."

Poison: This was to allow a character to handle poisons safely. Perhaps a stunt would be needed to use Scholarship or Lore for such a purpose?

Pommel Strike: Kind of like Corps-a-Corps, only it dealt more damage in 7th Sea. I can still see it working the same way, or simply as a maneuver.

Power Block: This was an "Offensive Block" against an unarmed attacker. Basically, it's Riposte with your fists. Rip the effect of Riposte and your good.

Reflection: This was an insane power from the Sidhe School from Bryn Bresail. It allows you to imitate your opponent's fighting style. Perhaps using "Mimic Abilities" and requiring a Weapons or Alertness roll to notice how the stunt is done to use for the scene?

Reload: With the long reloads of muskets, this was a useful knack to have. I'd say keep it as a stunt to allow speedy reloads.

Riposte: It works just fine in DFRPG, so no need to recreate the wheel. Move along. . .

Snap Kick and Stop Thrust: Both of these attacks work the same mechanically; one would use Fists, the other uses Weapons. If it hit hard enough, it actually CANCELLED the opponent's attack...I think it's a bit too rough to keep for DFRPG.
Perhaps if we pull the "counter attack" mechanic from another game, make this a stunt, and simply state "Whoever has the higher roll hits and interrupts the others attack," we might have something. Perhaps limiting it via spending Fate Points or once per scene would make it more balanced?

Tagging: The quintessential maneuver, right here. I like the idea of buying a stunt that makes any Aspect created and tagged by someone with this stunt worth +3 instead of +2 would be worthwhile.

Throw: This was just to attack with thrown weapons. We can ignore it.

Trick Riding: This one allows a collection of tricks to be done on horseback. Perhaps a stunt to allow the use of Riding in lieu of Perform for entertainment purposes, use Perform instead of Riding for general riding a horse, or just simply a bonus for any over the top action, including maneuvers?

Trick Shooting: Basically, trick shots like ricochets. If there isn't already a Stunt for it, I can see it being a bonus to creating scene aspects, maneuvers, or being a way to bypass a block.

Wall of Steel: This increased your defense until your action. I can't think of a way to emulate this in DFRPG.

Whirl: This basically gave a bonus to hitting Brute Squads (groups of nameless NPCs that died in one hit). I don't think this one is really relevant to the DFRPG.



And there you have it, all the stunts! Soon I'll go through the abilities of the schools and go from there. . .
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Offline Crion

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2013, 08:39:27 PM »
Removing the cost; reading the strands is the baseline ability of a Strega, and shouldn't be deeply taxing.

Noted and done.

As far as items of note: I agree that many items can simply be Aspects. I don't really like solutions that involve enchanted items, since I find them a kind of abusable sub-system; Item of Power is the better way to build such things. I don't think it's unreasonable for dracheneisen armor to effectively add Toughness to a normal suit of armor, or for a Twisted Blade to let the wielder move with what seems like Inhuman Speed.

I figured the Items of Note would be easiest as extras, but some just seem too stretch the boundary, thus the thought.

The Enchanted Item approach can be abuseable if it isn't limited, but I think with the right limits, it could work. Thoughts?

And yes, I agree with the thoughts you have regarding Dracheneisen Armor and Twisted Blades; items that emulate powers is the whole point of Items of Power, ne?
"Smilies exist because no one has bothered to make a sarcasm font." Lost_Heretic
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Offline Crion

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2013, 09:43:30 PM »
Now for the school abilities:

A part of me is thinking of staging the requirements in order to gain new "ranks" in the school; if it requires stunts, then buy the stunts to get the title of that rank. Of course, most advanced ranks are just stronger versions of previous ones, which makes me wonder: should we just simply deal with the stunts as-is, or provide "upgrades" like some of the powers provide?

First, for the obligatory "No Penalty For Off-Hand Weapons/Objects," we can either have a Stunt (two weapon fighting, shield training, etc) or just leave it as is for narrative effect.

Second, I'm ignoring the "Active Defense" bonuses granted by most two-weapon schools. Any time you see a defense comment, it's a Passive Effect.

Third, I'm ignoring the "Free Rank in <Skill>" since it doesn't fit well in DFRPG.

Aldana Apprentice: Initiative bonus - buy the stunt for +2 Initiative and be done with it.
Aldana Journeyman: Increased Defense - buy a stunt for a Defense boost, spent FP on invokes, make it a navel gazing maneuver?
Aldana Master: Focus Dice (basically, trance and get bonuses) - Navel Gazing Maneuver, or create a new power to emulate an effect like this?

Ambrogia Apprentice: Twist the weapon to deal more damage - Narrative effect of the attack, maneuver, invoke the concept, or a stunt?
Ambrogia Journeyman: When you wound an opponent, wound yourself to wound them again - I don't think DFRPG can handle something like this. Perhaps a stunt to overextend yourself take 2 stress, deal 2 more stress?
Ambrogia Master: If your opponent misses, your next attack is insanely easy - This is basically like Riposte, so I would just leave it with that.

Andrews Apprentice: A bonus to defense when not doing a lunge - Moot point in DFRPG; invokes or maneuvers.
Andrews Journeyman: Even more defense (doubles) - Perhaps a stunt to increase the full defense bonus?
Andrews Journeyman: EVEN MORE DEFENSE...and a bonus to Lunge - Invokes and Maneuvers may just be best here. . .

Bernoulli Apprentice: Bonus to defense - Invoke away!
Bernoulli Journeyman: Bonus to defense and bonuses to hit and damage on lunges - Invokes, maneuvers, etc.
Bernoulli Master - More defense, re-roll a failed attack - We already get the re-roll, so ignore it.

Bogatyr Apprentice: Bonus to attacking with an Axe - Invoke or Maneuvers; Stunts may be OP.
Bogatyr Journeyman: Your axe deals more damage - Killing Blows stunt.
Bogatyr Master: Gain a fear rating - Perhaps a stunt to use Weapons as an Intimidate Action? A bonus for intimidating targets?

Bonita Apprentice: When you hold an action, get a better chance of acting first in a later phase - Maneuver or Invoke for Initiative, basically.
Bonita Journeyman: Bonus to chasing, increased defense - Chase is a simply Athletics stunt, defense is like the above.
Bonita Master: When out of actions, spend a Drama Die to defend - I'm looking at invokes again, since DFRPG already lets you parry every attack.

Boucher Apprentice: Improved Initiative when wielding two knives - Buy the stunt at be done.
Boucher Journeyman: Opponents have a penalty to parry when you wield two knives - I'm looking at invoking here once again, or maneuvers.
Boucher Master - Multiple Attacks in Rapid Succession, but decreased accuracy - Two Weapon Fighting again. Perhaps a new stunt to increase the damage, or making an extra attack?

Buslayevich Apprentice: Bonus to horse archery and riding without reins - simple stunts for the most part, invokes for further bonuses.
Buslayevich Journeyman: Bonus to Trick Riding, Animal Training and Chases - All stunts, right there.
Buslayevich Master: Bigger bonus on trick riding, animal training, chases and horseback archery. Also gain 3 drama dice to be used while on horseback - Looking at what we have above.

Cappuntina Apprentice: Draw a knife and throw it in one action - I think there's a Quick Draw stunt already. If not, add it here.
Cappuntina Journeyman: Throw two knives at a single target - Two Weapon Fighting, but with throwing knives.
Cappuntina Master: Throw three knives in an action, can be at different targets - Spray attack for the multiple targets, another version of Two-Weapons for the third knife in the same target?

Chima Gonjian Shou Apprentice: Extra damage with your bow and can basically do Horseback Archery - Stunt for the Horseback Archery, Killing Blow but with a bow.
Chima Gonjian Shou Journeyman: Increased accuracy - Maneuver or Invoke; stunt may be OP.
Chima Gonjian Shou Master: Improved Initiative - Get the stunt and be done.

Chin Te Apprentice: Bonus to attack with a two-section flail - Invoke/Maneuver.
Chin Te Journeyman: If you succeed at an attack, make another attack - Use Two Weapon Fighting, but only with the flail?
Chin Te Master: Spin your weapon to improve defense - Basically a Block action, move alone.

Daphan Apprentice: Improved Initiative - you've seen what I said, move along. . .
Daphan Journeyman: Whenever an opponent parries you, spend a drama die to break their weapon - I'm looking at either a more permanent disarm action (maneuver), or an actual attack versus the weapon (give the object a stress track). The latter may work better for aspect-level objects, though...
Daphan Master: Take a penalty to attack, gain a bonus to damage - I'd go with Killing Blows again. . .



And I'll stop there for now. I need to close up for now, but I will get back to this later/tomorrow.
"Smilies exist because no one has bothered to make a sarcasm font." Lost_Heretic
"I don't care about whose DNA has recombined with whose. When everything goes to hell, the people who stand by you without flinching--they are your family." Harry Dresden

Offline Vargo Teras

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2013, 04:32:11 AM »
And now for Swordsman School Knacks!

I'm only looking at the KNACKS right now, not the actual abilities granted to each school (that will come up in another post). This will include knacks from schools in Cathay and the Crescent Empire.

Ambush: I think this is covered under the Burglary and Perception skills, as it just says you know how to spot or plan an ambus.

Arc: This increases the range of bows/crossbows, so I can see it is as either a Stunt (increase range by one zone) or just a maneuver.

Bear Hug: This is basically the grapple rules in a nutshell; nothing to see here.

Beat: This knocks the weapon out of the way when you attack. I think a maneuver should cover this well enough.

Bind: Basically, a "weapon grapple." I think either adding it to the Weapon skill trapping as a grapple (only for the opponent's weapon) could work. Otherwise, a Stunt that allows Weapons to be used as a Grapple, but only against the held weapon.

Boarding: This one needs ship combat rules to really work, as it grants a bonus to your boarding action (a combat roll). A stunt might work in this case, but it is hard to say.

Bob'n'Weave: This gives you a bonus when an opponent misses you. I think the current Spin rules (or, better yet, the new boost mechanic of Fate Core) fit this without the need of the knack.

Charge: This just lets your first action go sooner. Change a name of one of the initiative-based Alertness abilities and you're golden.

Claw Hand: An attack that, if successful, deals damage AND makes the opponent lose their next action. I think it's not a good idea for DFRPG and will throw it out.

Corps-a-corps: We've already discussed this one, as it's a punch that knocks you down. Allows the character to use the Weapons skill to initiate a one-turn grapple.

Conceal: Just a way to hide a weapon; I think we're good with the skill system as it stands.

Disarm: Simply removing a weapon from an opponent's grasp. I'm thinking of simple maneuvers here for the narration side. Any objections?

Double-Parry: Using both weapons to parry an attack. 7th Sea mechanics gave a temporary Drama Die for using it. I'm thinking it may be better to use the same name as a Stunt to grant a defense bonus when using two weapons (perhaps like two-weapon fighting, where 1/2 of the weapon value is given?).

Double-Attack: Attack twice when using two weapons. We already have a two-weapon stunt in DFRPG, so I think we're good.

Exploit Weakness: This one is a challenge. Do we keep it around as a stunt for each school to grant an attack bonus, or make it just a narrative tool and a compel of Aspects?

Feint: Like Beat, it's a way to get around a weapon and/or a parry. I'd stick with maneuvers here. But, I'd be okay with the idea of offering the Feint Stunt that gives a bonus to creating maneuvers using the Weapon skill.

Fortitude: This knack lets you take hits better. I think we're covered with how the rest of the DFRPG already works.

Hook: This adds a bonus to hit with a Panzerhand. I don't think we really need it in the DFRPG.

Horse Archery: This is used when using a bow on horseback. I think making it a stunt to allow this task to be done should be sufficient.

Lance: This knack is used for using a polearm in mounted combat. I'm okay with ignoring it, unless you think there should be a Mounted Combat stunt tossed in.

Lunge: An old favourite of mine. You attack with disregard to defense to deal more damage. I can see it being a maneuver, but I'd loved to see a mechanic representation of this. Perhaps a weapons-grade "Killer Blows"?

Missile Defense: In 7th Sea, this was used to dodge thrown weapons. Moot point since we have Athletics.

Orders: This was for mass combat, specifically granting a bonus for one tactic. I doubt it will come up in DFRPG, but if it does, we can easily make it a Presence based stunt.

Pin (Knife): The whole idea of throwing a knife and pinning someone to the wall. I think this would simply be a stunt to "Use Weapons to Initiate a Grapple."

Poison: This was to allow a character to handle poisons safely. Perhaps a stunt would be needed to use Scholarship or Lore for such a purpose?

Pommel Strike: Kind of like Corps-a-Corps, only it dealt more damage in 7th Sea. I can still see it working the same way, or simply as a maneuver.

Power Block: This was an "Offensive Block" against an unarmed attacker. Basically, it's Riposte with your fists. Rip the effect of Riposte and your good.

Reflection: This was an insane power from the Sidhe School from Bryn Bresail. It allows you to imitate your opponent's fighting style. Perhaps using "Mimic Abilities" and requiring a Weapons or Alertness roll to notice how the stunt is done to use for the scene?

Reload: With the long reloads of muskets, this was a useful knack to have. I'd say keep it as a stunt to allow speedy reloads.

Riposte: It works just fine in DFRPG, so no need to recreate the wheel. Move along. . .

Snap Kick and Stop Thrust: Both of these attacks work the same mechanically; one would use Fists, the other uses Weapons. If it hit hard enough, it actually CANCELLED the opponent's attack...I think it's a bit too rough to keep for DFRPG.
Perhaps if we pull the "counter attack" mechanic from another game, make this a stunt, and simply state "Whoever has the higher roll hits and interrupts the others attack," we might have something. Perhaps limiting it via spending Fate Points or once per scene would make it more balanced?

Tagging: The quintessential maneuver, right here. I like the idea of buying a stunt that makes any Aspect created and tagged by someone with this stunt worth +3 instead of +2 would be worthwhile.

Throw: This was just to attack with thrown weapons. We can ignore it.

Trick Riding: This one allows a collection of tricks to be done on horseback. Perhaps a stunt to allow the use of Riding in lieu of Perform for entertainment purposes, use Perform instead of Riding for general riding a horse, or just simply a bonus for any over the top action, including maneuvers?

Trick Shooting: Basically, trick shots like ricochets. If there isn't already a Stunt for it, I can see it being a bonus to creating scene aspects, maneuvers, or being a way to bypass a block.

Wall of Steel: This increased your defense until your action. I can't think of a way to emulate this in DFRPG.

Whirl: This basically gave a bonus to hitting Brute Squads (groups of nameless NPCs that died in one hit). I don't think this one is really relevant to the DFRPG.



And there you have it, all the stunts! Soon I'll go through the abilities of the schools and go from there. . .
Binding and disarming should be simple maneuvers, possibly with a stunt for a bonus. I'm wary of things granting bonuses to attack/defense; I'd have a Double Parry stunt make it easier to get spin on defense when using two weapons, since that holds to the original mechanic (fancy defense gets you something to use going forward). Exploit Weakness is very much within the realm of compels, but I can see room for a stunt granting more value from maneuvers against certain styles.

Lunge could indeed be something like that, save that Killer Blows is a terrible stunt. A Fate Point added to an attack already gives +2 stress; Killer Blows only adds +1 stress once per scene. I'd rather hark back to the Lunge mechanic; gain a +2 to stress inflicted in exchange for offering a Mediocre defense until your next turn.

Stop Thrust/Snap Kick could be as follows: sacrifice your next action, make a Weapons roll; if it hits, the incoming attack fails, but if it misses, you offer a Mediocre defense against the incoming attack. Useful when you see a bad attack coming in, or when you have some bonus to attack that you don't have to defense.

I'd like Tagging to give bonuses only when what's being done is not a physical attack. Carving your initials in someone's pants seat isn't to help you stab them to death, it's to help you humiliate them, convince them that you're the superior swordsman, or show your mercy to the love interest who commands them.

Everything I didn't comment on looks good.

EDIT: Enough of the school abilities seem like they're more invoke-fodder than actual stunts that I think it's more worth calling out the ones that really need/can be a stunt, and otherwise mostly making it a question of Aspects.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 04:35:49 AM by Vargo Teras »

Offline Crion

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2013, 01:59:03 PM »
Binding and disarming should be simple maneuvers, possibly with a stunt for a bonus.

Agreed. Do you think the stunt for those should be a simple +1 bonus?

I'm wary of things granting bonuses to attack/defense; I'd have a Double Parry stunt make it easier to get spin on defense when using two weapons, since that holds to the original mechanic (fancy defense gets you something to use going forward).

Perhaps we should modify the rules from Fate Core, as they tweaked "spin" into a "boost," where if you beat the roll by 3 or more, you were given a one-time Aspect that only you could tag. Perhaps giving a stunt that reduces this margin by one?

Exploit Weakness is very much within the realm of compels, but I can see room for a stunt granting more value from maneuvers against certain styles.

My concern with that is the need to purchase a stunt every time you would want to acquire the new school bonus. Perhaps we should stick within the realm of compels and call it good?

Lunge could indeed be something like that, save that Killer Blows is a terrible stunt. A Fate Point added to an attack already gives +2 stress; Killer Blows only adds +1 stress once per scene. I'd rather hark back to the Lunge mechanic; gain a +2 to stress inflicted in exchange for offering a Mediocre defense until your next turn.

I'm not going to lie that I dislike Killer Blows, but it's as close to the idea as I had.

I think that idea of a stunt as manageable, considering you can have a "full defense" for +2 for the turn, so getting the extra damage in exchange for defense should be workable.

Stop Thrust/Snap Kick could be as follows: sacrifice your next action, make a Weapons roll; if it hits, the incoming attack fails, but if it misses, you offer a Mediocre defense against the incoming attack. Useful when you see a bad attack coming in, or when you have some bonus to attack that you don't have to defense.

I think that one is acceptable as well and should work.

I'd like Tagging to give bonuses only when what's being done is not a physical attack. Carving your initials in someone's pants seat isn't to help you stab them to death, it's to help you humiliate them, convince them that you're the superior swordsman, or show your mercy to the love interest who commands them.

So you would rather have a stunt for someone "tag" the belt-buckle of an opponent and get a bigger bonus to social (or even, arguably, defense) rolls instead of the next attack roll?

Everything I didn't comment on looks good.

Awesome. I'll add more of a writeup to my list.

EDIT: Enough of the school abilities seem like they're more invoke-fodder than actual stunts that I think it's more worth calling out the ones that really need/can be a stunt, and otherwise mostly making it a question of Aspects.

Sounds good enough. Perhaps I'll look through all of the schools, note the general abilities that are present in most of them, and just throw out the data that way?

My biggest concern, besides the defense, is the weapon breaking. I don't think simple disarms would cut it, considering the possibility of non-standard objects being aspects; it would really suck to have your aspect "Inherited Soldano Steel" be destroyed on a bad roll against a maneuver.

Then again, it does sort of fit with minor milestones. . .

Thoughts?
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Offline Crion

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2013, 03:44:24 PM »
To go along the line I mentioned in the last comment, here are the ways I KNOW we can emulate some of the special abilities from a school:

Increases to a non-combat skill: Simply buy a stunt relating to it (i.e. Trick Riding: Gain a +2 on rolls regarding Perform while riding a horse).

The ability to do X: Buy a stunt that allows this to happen. Shield use, mounted combat

Negate the penalty of. . .: Some of this is narration (two weapons, for example), some is mechanical (the aforementioned shield use). We should be good there on a case-by-case basis.

Two Attacks: The Two-Weapon Fighting Stunt takes care of this problem.

Attack Multiple Targets: The Wall of Death stunt for a spray attack can cover this without an issue.

If X, Then Y: The biggest examples of "If your opponent misses, make a free disarm attempt", "If you bind your opponent's weapon, you may attempt to disarm them immediately", or "If you bind, gain a bonus to disarm." Each of these can utilize a current mechanic or be a stunt, as they are all under a VERY narrow focus; the miss can use the new boost mechanic from Core (stunt to reduce it), same thing with the Bind, and the disarm bonus can simply be a stunt.

Gain a Fear Rating: Two approaches to this: buy a stunt to gain a bonus for Intimidation, or use Weapons as an Intimidation attack/maneuver. Could even buy both and it should work.

Free Raises: Simply compels or buy a stunt that gives a bonus of +1 for using the weapon in that appointed matter.

New Defense: Anything that allows you to roll to set a new TN for your defense should simply be read as a Block using the Weapons (or related) skill.

Combat Bonuses: This is aimed at things like grapple, off-hand parry, horseback archery, etc. I'd be okay with buying a stunt to grant the +1 bonus aimed at this.

Interrupt Attacks: See the notes on Stop-Thrust in the previous post.

Left Handed: This tends to be a big thing in the fencing world, and a few schools give this bonus. Honestly, I'm game for invokes here, as a stunt would be too much potential for stacking.

Drunken Boxing: I think a stunt is perfectly acceptable for this, as it is rather limited with how you can acquire that bonus.

Improvised Weapons/Shields: I think the declaration, assessment, maneuver, and even just the Weapon/Fists skill covers this rather well, and will leave it like that.

Gelingen Monster Hunting: Use the Occultist stunt to help with Declarations, Assessments and Compels. This may be an alternative to general Exploit Weakness.

Now for the stuff I can't decide:

Attack and Defense bonuses: Most of this can simply be invoking of the aspect with the school, but since the source material has it steadily increase based on rank, I have a hard time accepting this.
The closest thing I can think of is to provide a stunt that grants a +1 to attack or defense within certain circumstances (while using that weapon, only in melee), and allow it to be purchased up to three times.

Damage Bonuses: There are a few ways around this. The first is the rip off the effect of Inhuman Strength when it comes to damage, and only with the weapon in question. Another is to use a stunt, like a weakened (non-FP powered) Killer Blows to increase the Weapon Value of the preferred weapon by 1.
Alternatively, there was a stunt in Fate Core called Killing Stroke: if your opponent is about to take a consequence, spend an FP and force them to take a consequence larger than planned (i.e. if they took 6 stress and wanted to fill their -4, you could spend a FP and make them fill their -6 instead).
Finally, basic compel/invoke mechanics could, in theory, work.

Weapon Breaking: There are multiple thoughts here. The first is to make the break like the grapple rules or a disarm; set up your opponent by creating an aspect to invoke, then invoke it for the purpose of your task. Basically it removes the weapon, only more permanently.
Alternatively, you could give the weapon a number of stress boxes/durability and have it absorb the abuse that way.

"Focus" Dice and similar effects: Some schools grant a bigger dice pool for set tasks (like Initiative), or even ANY task involving combat (like the bonus from Aldana). I'm going to be honest: I don't know what would be best emulate this. Modular Abilities? The ability to purchase powers (which gives them an INSANE edge)? New stunts?

If your opponent misses, their defense drops: The Riposte stunt as written is the closest thing I've seen to this. Any better ideas?

Extra Actions: I really don't think DFRPG/Fate is up for multiple actions per turn without taking penalties, especially considering some of these are multiple attacks. . .

Multiple Attacks: Dealing with a two weapon school with two attacks is easy to deal with. Dealing with a two weapon school that allows MORE than two attacks is the challenge. Perhaps further stunts to increase the damage from Two-Weapon fighting?

Lower Opponent's Defense. Period.: I'm looking at maneuvers again, because making an attack that is harder to parry seems like a lot of tags, invokes, and compels. Having a stunt that always causes that drop seems a bit to OP, and it wouldn't be anything more than a +1 attack with the way stunts are set up. Opinions?

Bonus Drama Dice if X condition is met: This would be the equivalent of giving out free Fate Points for the scene. I don't think this can be converted.

Skill X is now a bonus for Y: I can see this being an invocation for a bonus, but I can see that getting expensive. Perhaps a stunt that allows a secondary skill (like Perform) be able to modify/supplement the primary skill (like Weapons)?

Bonus Against Wounds: The closest thought here is getting a stunt that grants an extra consequence, an Armor rating or something similar. Basically, a weakened version of Inhuman Toughness. Otherwise, a stunt that allows Endurance to be used as a defense/block. Not certain what else to offer up.

Offensive Blocks: I know this tends to be bad juju in this community, but some schools (like Donovan) have the ability to deal a minor bit of damage after every successful parry. I can't think of a good way to do this, and would scrap it, but I'm looking for opinions.

Stances: Not many schools have them, and I'd simply just use it as navel gazing maneuvers or as a special variant of Modular Abilities, letting you purchase stunts (and ONLY stunts) based on the "stance" involved (one gives Initiative bonuses, one gives damage bonuses, etc). If this route is taken, I'd think reducing the cost of modular abilities from -2 to -1 may be in order.

Immunity to an attack: This is from one of the schools from Bryn Bresail, and I'm tempted to toss it. It's a contested roll, and if you succeed, you are immune to that attack for the rest of the scene. I think it's too close to the Immunity power.

Protecting Others: Would this constitute simply as a block, or something more?

Syrneth Tinkering: I know this isn't a "school" per se, but it technically is. The ability to tinker with ancient artifacts and make working devices almost falls into the purview of Crafting. . .

Raising the Stakes: With Valroux, if they call for a Raise (increased difficulty) and succeed, the opponent must match that roll at LEAST. Basically, it's a Block that uses the connecting attack roll for it's base.
A bit too OP?

Lower Defense For Stronger Attack: Some schools drop their guard to catch an opponent unaware and deal some major damage, especially with the Stop-Thrust. I don't think it translates well, thought.
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Offline Vargo Teras

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2013, 05:24:00 AM »
Agreed. Do you think the stunt for those should be a simple +1 bonus?
I feel like most stunts for specific maneuvers are +2s, but I could be misremembering.

Perhaps we should modify the rules from Fate Core, as they tweaked "spin" into a "boost," where if you beat the roll by 3 or more, you were given a one-time Aspect that only you could tag. Perhaps giving a stunt that reduces this margin by one?
Sounds good to me; side note, I could never actually find in the Fate Core where Boosts were defined.

My concern with that is the need to purchase a stunt every time you would want to acquire the new school bonus. Perhaps we should stick within the realm of compels and call it good?
Probably simpler than creating rules for what schools you do and don't have.

I'm not going to lie that I dislike Killer Blows, but it's as close to the idea as I had.

I think that idea of a stunt as manageable, considering you can have a "full defense" for +2 for the turn, so getting the extra damage in exchange for defense should be workable.
Sounds good.

So you would rather have a stunt for someone "tag" the belt-buckle of an opponent and get a bigger bonus to social (or even, arguably, defense) rolls instead of the next attack roll?
Pretty much. Bonuses to attack are big things, but something which encourages the combination of repartee and swordplay that makes up classic swashbuckling combat is something I'd like.


Sounds good enough. Perhaps I'll look through all of the schools, note the general abilities that are present in most of them, and just throw out the data that way?
Sounds good.

My biggest concern, besides the defense, is the weapon breaking. I don't think simple disarms would cut it, considering the possibility of non-standard objects being aspects; it would really suck to have your aspect "Inherited Soldano Steel" be destroyed on a bad roll against a maneuver.

Then again, it does sort of fit with minor milestones. . .

Thoughts?
In general, I don't like the idea of weapon breakage; a properly made sword, even one that isn't your father's Soldano blade, can't really be broken without taking the time to stick it into a vise and go at it with a hammer. Definitely opposed to aspects or Items of Power being broken; there's a reason they all get the "no breaking me without major plot" quality for free.

Offline Crion

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2013, 02:10:50 PM »
Before I get into ideas: Boosts are defined on page 62 of Fate Core (bottom of the page), and started on page 138, they go into the Four Outcomes ("Succeeding With Style" being what grants the boost), and then the main actions of a character.

Now, since we seem to agree on everything else, I'll work on the one point of "debate" that still remains:

In general, I don't like the idea of weapon breakage; a properly made sword, even one that isn't your father's Soldano blade, can't really be broken without taking the time to stick it into a vise and go at it with a hammer. Definitely opposed to aspects or Items of Power being broken; there's a reason they all get the "no breaking me without major plot" quality for free.

I'd personally like to leave the idea in place as it was a big deal for a couple of the schools (Eisenfaust and Daphan off the top of my head, but I recall seeing it in one or two more schools) and at least one type of Montaigne Puzzle Sword (it had a sword-breaker hammer if I remember correctly). I can see it as a good plot device to promote Aspects being changed, or even a story line to gain a new weapon or repair the old one. We see some epic tales like that already, so why not keep it?

Items of Power hit that grey area, as in 7th Sea, VERY few items were truly unbreakable. The unbreakable items were types of Syrneth artifacts, some other relics, and one type of Montaign Puzzle Sword. Different blades were tougher to break (Soldano blades, Pattern-welded swords, and Dracheneisen are the first I can name offhand), but they were breakable in the end. Since it required a Drama Die to do it, it was usually at a cost AND dramatically appropriate, so why not emulate it?
Perhaps we should toss it in as a Stunt to even be able to attempt it, and if it is an IoP or an Aspect, a Fate Point must be given to the character?

I can see an IoP breaking causing a potential Aspect change or even an in-game story to replace it, while an Aspect being "forced" to be changed can be attributed to the end of game minor milestone to simulate the broken weapon and how it impacts the character.


Just a thought, of course.

I'll start writing up the other stuff when I have the mentality to do it. Work has me doing a lot of report writing lately, and that's been making me unmotivated to stay at the computer any longer than I have to.
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"I don't care about whose DNA has recombined with whose. When everything goes to hell, the people who stand by you without flinching--they are your family." Harry Dresden

Offline Crion

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Re: 7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2013, 12:13:16 AM »
I've been fending off a plague recently, so I've been away from the keyboard for a while (and may continue to do so for a while after this depending on how long this lasts).

While I am still coherent: I spoke with one of my DFRPG players and fellow 7th Sea GM, and he agreed that keeping the weapon breaking would be a good idea. This is what we've come up with:

Weapons Stunt: Weapon Breaker
Note: You must have a reason behind taking this Stunt; normally training in a specialized school of combat or a specific weapon-breaking tool.
As with the grapple rules, you must have an appropriate aspect to tag in order to perform this maneuver. With the expenditure of a FATE Point (which goes to the victim), you may attack your opponents weapon directly. Your opponent rolls Weapons to resist the attempt. If successful, you deal damage to the weapon as you would damage a character. A weapon has a number of stress boxes equal to its Weapon Value. Some weapons may be stronger than other, and may be ruled accordingly. As a rule of thumb: items of Quality gain +1 stress box, weapons that are Aspects gain +2 stress boxes, and items of various materials may gain an armor rating.
"Smilies exist because no one has bothered to make a sarcasm font." Lost_Heretic
"I don't care about whose DNA has recombined with whose. When everything goes to hell, the people who stand by you without flinching--they are your family." Harry Dresden