Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)

[wizard nelson]

that may have been suggested once or twice

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.msg1452190.html#msg1452190

 

ever think of redoing this with knowledge of

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lash causing some of those headaches instead?

[Ms Duck]

ever think of redoing this with knowledge of

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lash causing some of those headaches instead?

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not really. at the end of GS par of the deal with Mab was that she stop mucking with his head. I just figured, being Mab, she hired lash to do instead

[Discussion Bored]

A couple of things -- first, I listened to many of the books instead of reading them (job involves a lot of car travel, so it works out well).  So I can't easily refer back to the books, and therefore apologize if I misremember something that was explained.  Also, I'm approaching this from a "many universes" perspective. Okay, that being said:

I'm not sure free will is necessarily violated by time travel. If Harry goes back in time to fix LC, he would be alone in his basement (except for Bob, who may or may not have noticed).  So even if free will resets and everyone has the opportunity to make different choices, there really aren't any new conditions that would lead them to make different choices.  If you travel back but don't interact with anyone (or, in Bob's case, only interact with those that can understand the implications of telling your past self you were there and agrees not to -- or agrees to forget the interaction), there isn't really a reason to think free will is violated.

Looking at the issue with the assumption that there are infinite universes based at least in part on decisions that are made, there must exist a universe where Harry has the knowledge and power to time travel, as well as the knowledge of the need to fix LC.  When that Harry travels back in time to fix LC, he collapses all those universe divergences back together and makes his change.  So his actions redefine the conditions under which choices are freely made.

I'm not saying it's the most likely option, but I don't think it's impossible.

[Ms Duck]

hi Lurker !


two thoughts:

In the DF, as far as we know, the other potential universes don't collapse- they continue to exist. That's why even someone who can see the future, like Mab, can't be 100% correct- there are two many possible future universes.

second, the idea that just because people face the exact same decision again they will make the exact same choice is probably a bit off too. Uriel says most people are predictable, but some aren't. In the zillions and zillions of decisions made in that time loop, all it would take would be a few key ones off to throw the loop out of loop.

its the monkeys writing Shakespeare problem, except this time we would need the exact same monkey to write the exact same page. 

[Discussion Bored]

In the DF, as far as we know, the other potential universes don't collapse- they continue to exist. That's why even someone who can see the future, like Mab, can't be 100% correct- there are two many possible future universes.

Maybe collapse was the wrong word.  I was trying to say that TTH was going back to a time before the universes diverge at the decision point.

second, the idea that just because people face the exact same decision again they will make the exact same choice is probably a bit off too. Uriel says most people are predictable, but some aren't. In the zillions and zillions of decisions made in that time loop, all it would take would be a few key ones off to throw the loop out of loop.

But there will exist at least one universe where all the same decisions are made, and from one of those universes will TTH originate.


Now, this is all a little convenient.  Anything could be explained as "well, this is the universe where that is possible."  So I'm not sold on the TTH Harry idea myself -- Mab does seem more likely.  But I do think it has to be possible.

[Ms Duck]

frankly it all smacks of discworld's super strong androcentric principle, from which you can conclude the entire purpose of the universe was to supply me with a nice a sandwich and a beer.

[Hex]

I can't shake the feeling the Mother Summer was behind fixing LC. Harry's survival/success seems to keep increasing the number of potential bright futures she sees. And pretty much everyone says yes ma'am when she gives them an order.

[Discussion Bored]

frankly it all smacks of discworld's super strong androcentric principle, from which you can conclude the entire purpose of the universe was to supply me with a nice a sandwich and a beer.

Well, I think a universe dedicated to providing sandwiches and beer is something we can all get behind. 

[Ms Duck]

Well, I think a universe dedicated to providing sandwiches and beer is something we can all get behind. 

since the odds against the  universe evolving the way it did are incalculable, one can conclude that its was the purpose of the universe to evolve  the way it did;

since the odds against the  universe evolving intelligent life the way it did are incalculable, one can conclude that its was the purpose of the universe to evolve intelligent life  the way it did;

 since the odds against the  universe evolving me in particular the way it did are incalculable, one can conclude that its was the purpose of the universe to evolve  me the way it did;

ergo, since i am eating  a ham sandwich with extra honey mustard right now, one can conclude the entire purpose of the universe is to provide me with a ham sandwich. 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

since the odds against the  universe evolving the way it did are incalculable, one can conclude that its was the purpose of the universe to evolve  the way it did;
since the odds against the  universe evolving intelligent life the way it did are incalculable, one can conclude that its was the purpose of the universe to evolve intelligent life  the way it did;
 since the odds against the  universe evolving me in particular the way it did are incalculable, one can conclude that its was the purpose of the universe to evolve  me the way it did;
ergo, since i am eating  a ham sandwich with extra honey mustard right now, one can conclude the entire purpose of the universe is to provide me with a ham sandwich.

The odds of anything that has already happened having happened are 100%/

[Ms Duck]

The odds of anything that has already happened having happened are 100%/

now now Neuro, you wouldn't disagree with terry pratchet, would you?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

now now Neuro, you wouldn't disagree with terry pratchet, would you?

The first time I met him, he asked me what the secret of my sexual success was.  That kind of disinclined me to excessive reference.

[Dedwrekka]

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not really. at the end of GS par of the deal with Mab was that she stop mucking with his head. I just figured, being Mab, she hired lash to do instead

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Lash was already mucking with Harry's head. We see in Ghost Story that Lash was behind Harry choosing to take up the Winter Mantle. Also, if Mab was in cahoots with Lash, she wouldn't have needed to bargain with her to save Harry when he was down and out in Ghost Story.

[Ms Duck]

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Lash was already mucking with Harry's head. We see in Ghost Story that Lash was behind Harry choosing to take up the Winter Mantle. Also, if Mab was in cahoots with Lash, she wouldn't have needed to bargain with her to save Harry when he was down and out in Ghost Story.

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1- the shadow probably wasn't lash, it was lasciel

2- shadow I dont think intended him to become knight. it wanted him dead

3- the interference im talking about having lash do occurred in CD

[Griffyn612]

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Why are you talking in spoilers?

So why is Parasite causing the same type of headaches as the ones Harry experienced when his mind was apparently Mabipulated?  Specifically, the "pain in the temples", which are attributed to the Parasite in CD, but were previously described during his lapses (SmF blasting rod; TC LC).

    Oooooooohhhh....

Maybe Mab isn't causing the headaches.  Nor is her manipulation of his mind.  When you think about it, Mab should be able to leave no trace of her manipulation, right?

But what if the headaches are the Parasite's attempts to draw his attention?  What if it's Lash trying to point a neon sign at the parts of Harry's brain that Mab manipulated?

The first time, in regards to the blasting rod, Harry doesn't hear Michael say the words.  His mind is prevented from even recognizing those words together.  But then he has the shooting pain, and he remembers the words, and then their relationship to him.

The second time, Harry seems to have no recollection of LC.  He sits and tries tracking spells in the circle in his lab.  It's not until after he tells Molly that he hesitates after saying he has no idea what to do next that he has the shooting pain. 

What if Lash was saying "Blasting rod, idjit!" and "Try LC, idjit!", and it came across as ice-picks-to-the-temples headaches.