Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)

[Elegast]

One of the hardest parts of this sort of discussion is that I can trivially think in four spatial dimensions and do five if I push it; it's very useful for complex database design.  But finding good words for how that looks inside my head has been balking me for decades.

http://mathoverflow.net/questions/25983/intuitive-crutches-for-higher-dimensional-thinking

[Hollorr]

@Griffyn--son of a (expletive expletive expletive). You're right. About 2 seconds after I got the reasoning of your argument about the energy at DR being an interaction with its wards I forgot it when replying to Hollorr. Since I do not currently have dementia, my only excuse is that the temporal echoes thing from an altered timeline makes so much intuitive sense to me it creeps back in when it shouldnt. My bad.
AWWW thanks Griffyn...just when someone says good point..../cry....lol
Anyway both Ms.duck and a few people are hung up about the free will taken away by time traveling...okay there was this movie my grandmother has and I can't remeber the name...I will try to find the name of it, but the whole point of the movie is about a group of archaeology people of medieval times...they go back in time to go save the main toon father from death...but anyway at the very end of the movie, they are heading back to their time in the middle of the battle and 1 stays..he makes a choice to stay behind and it doesn't affect the past or future because it's already happen.....same thing if harry choose to go back in time because of some reason. Harry in the future makes an choice to go back..key point Harry could or won't go back in time at that time he could make a choice...He could for say no and then, well die if the TTH is true but he could say yes of his own free will...I Just don't see harry going back to just save himself...maybe someone else yes but not just going to save his own hide.
IF the TTH is true there must be alot more story then that.
or as someone said a few post ago, it could be a harry from another timeline/ is trying to save himself in another time...kind of like how the Chronicles of Nick series alot of people are saying is what is happening in the series so...anyway sorry for the long post.

[Elegast]

Using Tao's technic:

I can't help you much with high-dimensional topology - it's not my field, and I've not picked up the various tricks topologists use to get a grip on the subject - but when dealing with the geometry of high-dimensional (or infinite-dimensional) vector spaces such as R^n, there are plenty of ways to conceptualise these spaces that do not require visualising more than three dimensions directly. For instance, one can view a high-dimensional vector space as a state space for a system with many degrees of freedom. A megapixel image, for instance, is a point in a million-dimensional vector space; by varying the image, one can explore the space, and various subsets of this space correspond to various classes of images.

The first three cubes are the usual dimensions.

Then Gryffin suggests that time doesn't exist. He proposes two additional dimensions, represented by the two cubes on the second line.
Time is then a path we are forced to follow in those two dimensions. That path could loop on itself.

Hope that helps.

Post edited as my first version was incorrect.

[Ms Duck]

For what its worth, I understand the theory, Im just not buying it

the idea that objects can create themselves bothers me, the free will bothers, the power requirements bothers me..

heck, zombies bother me.

time zombies.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/AllYouZombies

there, now you can all share my pain.

[Griffyn612]

Using Tao's technic:



The first three cubes are the usual dimensions.

Then Gryffin suggests that time doesn't exist. He proposes two additional dimensions, represented by the two cubes on the second line.
Time is then a path we are forced to follow in those two dimensions. That path could loop on itself.

Hope that helps.

Post edited as my first version was incorrect.

Not to completely confuse things, and I know there are a multitude of ideas on how many and in what fashion dimensions exist.  Here are 3 spacial dimensions and 3 temporal dimensions, as I see them.

Here Directions
1a) Ahead
1b) Behind
2a) Aside
2b) Beside
3a) Above
3b) Below

Now Directions
A1) What was
A2) What will be
B1) What wasn't
B2) What won't be
C1) What couldn't be
C2) What can't be

For what its worth, I understand the theory, Im just not buying it

the idea that objects can create themselves bothers me, the free will bothers, the power requirements bothers me..

heck, zombies bother me.

time zombies.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/AllYouZombies

there, now you can all share my pain.

Technically, there are two points for any location.  There is Here, and there is Now.  All I'm suggesting is that one Here (Demonreach) be linked to two Nows (PG and FutureTime).  Clearly Merlin was able to arrange it once, so the power requirements are manageable.  I don't understand your concern about objects creating themselves.  That's based on your time machine example, not the DR temporalBridgePocketDimension example.  Nothing creates itself. 

[Ms Duck]

no, in a stable time loop the event creates itself.

TT Harry fixed LC -> Harry Time travels - > TT harry fixes LC

and I don't believe that possible because it violates conservation

its often called the ontological paradox.

[King Ash]

@Griffyn--son of a (expletive expletive expletive). You're right. About 2 seconds after I got the reasoning of your argument about the energy at DR being an interaction with its wards I forgot it when replying to Hollorr. Since I do not currently have dementia, my only excuse is that the temporal echoes thing from an altered timeline makes so much intuitive sense to me it creeps back in when it shouldnt. My bad.
AWWW thanks Griffyn...just when someone says good point..../cry....lol
Anyway both Ms.duck and a few people are hung up about the free will taken away by time traveling...okay there was this movie my grandmother has and I can't remeber the name...I will try to find the name of it, but the whole point of the movie is about a group of archaeology people of medieval times...they go back in time to go save the main toon father from death...but anyway at the very end of the movie, they are heading back to their time in the middle of the battle and 1 stays..he makes a choice to stay behind and it doesn't affect the past or future because it's already happen.....same thing if harry choose to go back in time because of some reason. Harry in the future makes an choice to go back..key point Harry could or won't go back in time at that time he could make a choice...He could for say no and then, well die if the TTH is true but he could say yes of his own free will...I Just don't see harry going back to just save himself...maybe someone else yes but not just going to save his own hide.
IF the TTH is true there must be alot more story then that.
or as someone said a few post ago, it could be a harry from another timeline/ is trying to save himself in another time...kind of like how the Chronicles of Nick series alot of people are saying is what is happening in the series so...anyway sorry for the long post.

Michael Crighton's Timeline?

[Griffyn612]

Michael Crighton's Timeline?

Ugh, I didn't like that movie.  The book was decent, but nowhere near his best.

no, in a stable time loop the event creates itself.

TT Harry fixed LC -> Harry Time travels - > TT harry fixes LC

and I don't believe that possible because it violates conservation

its often called the ontological paradox.

But you're still arguing that what Merlin did in the Dresdenverse is impossible in the Dresdenverse. 

On a related note, my current thinking is that time in the Dresdenverse is a wheel.  The only reason for thinking that is because of the use of FIVE points of time, like the five points of the pentacle used in both Merlin and Harry's magic.  Bob showed a representation of Merlin appearing 5 times in linear fashion to cast the wards, but said that all of them were cast just once in the 5 times.  I think the reason that the number is 5 is because they form a temporal pentacle.  But to do that, time would have to be either a wheel, or a spiral.

[Ms Duck]

Ugh, I didn't like that movie.  The book was decent, but nowhere near his best.

But you're still arguing that what Merlin did in the Dresdenverse is impossible in the Dresdenverse. 

On a related note, my current thinking is that time in the Dresdenverse is a wheel.  The only reason for thinking that is because of the use of FIVE points of time, like the five points of the pentacle used in both Merlin and Harry's magic.  Bob showed a representation of Merlin appearing 5 times in linear fashion to cast the wards, but said that all of them were cast just once in the 5 times.  I think the reason that the number is 5 is because they form a temporal pentacle.  But to do that, time would have to be either a wheel, or a spiral.

No, im not:

because

A: its not a time loop

B: it may not even be time travel

C: we have no frickin idea how it was done

D: a greater god was very likely involved

[Hex]

Bob: He built it once. In five different times. All at the same time.
Harry: Uh. He was in the same place, doing the same thing, in five different times at once?
Bob: Exactly.

--- later in the conversation----

Bob: Look, a mortal jail is built in three dimensions, right? Merlin built this one in four, and probably several more, though you can't really tell whether or not he built it in a given dimension until you go there and measure it.

Is it possible Merlin wasn't just in 3 or 4 dimensions when he built DR?

[Ms Duck]

--- later in the conversation----
Is it possible Merlin wasn't just in 3 or 4 dimensions when he built DR?

yup.

kind of what ive been saying, I don't think he traveled in time at all

[Silkki]

As I said before, if traveling back in time was not possible for mortals, there wouldn't be a law against swimming against the currents of time. I am not saying Harry can go back to meet Sue while she was still alive. But some form of TT to the past must be possible. Jim simply wouldn't make a law of magic that is irrelevant.

I don't think Merlin travelled back in time to build the prison again. It's possible though. I got the feeling Merlin simply built it in every dimension at the same time. How does that work? Magic! It just seems cooler than him building DR once, then getting a cup of tea and some food, then traveling back in time to do it again, and repeating that for like 12 times.

[Elegast]

Not to completely confuse things, and I know there are a multitude of ideas on how many and in what fashion dimensions exist.  Here are 3 spacial dimensions and 3 temporal dimensions, as I see them.

Here Directions
1a) Ahead
1b) Behind
2a) Aside
2b) Beside
3a) Above
3b) Below

Now Directions
A1) What was
A2) What will be
B1) What wasn't
B2) What won't be
C1) What couldn't be
C2) What can't be

Ok. Then I've absolutely no idea what you're talking about. 

[Elegast]

I don't think he traveled in time at all

Bob says otherwise in Cold Days.

[Elegast]

no, in a stable time loop the event creates itself.

TT Harry fixed LC -> Harry Time travels - > TT harry fixes LC

and I don't believe that possible because it violates conservation

its often called the ontological paradox.

It does create the ontological paradox, but does not the law of conservation of history as LC has already been fixed.