The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]

[Ms Duck]

Gotcha, so TTHarry being a posiblity isn't a reason to discount The Gatekeeper as one.

each possibility needs to be evaluated on its own merits and problems. just disproving one does not automatically prove another.

the fun thing about Rashid is the more I think about it, the more plausible it becomes. What if all the hints Jim has dropped in the last three books about 'Mab fixed it' are just red herrings?

[wyltok]

Serack did an excellent analysis a few years ago that was the basis for many ideas about the gatekeeper being the culprit; it should be in reference someplace.

I know! But I couldn't find it. And since Elegast's theory index does encourage linking to a source, and we now know more about Rashid's mindset, I figured, may as well make an updated one. Of course, anyone with better search-fu than my own (which I admit is severely lacking) is welcome to provide links to Serack's excellent work.

I still hold Mab as suspect number one though; some of the comments in CD:

- she knows what Harrys apartment looks like
- she knew about bob all along
- sidhe can walk thru thresholds

all seem to me to be less cluebats and more of " good grief, haven't you all solved this one by now?" On Jim's part

There are two big issues to Mab being the culprit, and a few little ones. The big ones, of course, is that she doesn't seem able to see the future (demonstrated, in my mind, by her failure to see Lily's future at the end of Cold Days) and the fact that so long as she was defending Harry as Lea's proxy, she was limited to act only as far as Lea could. So unless Mab cheated somehow, she could only fix LC as well as Lea could, rather than as well as she herself could.

each possibility needs to be evaluated on its own merits and problems. just disproving one does not automatically prove another.

the fun thing about Rashid is the more I think about it, the more plausible it becomes. What if all the hints Jim has dropped in the last three books about 'Mab fixed it' are just red herrings?

Seeing as we now know exactly how close in purpose the Gatekeeper and Mab are, I can't help but wonder if maybe they actually worked together. Certainly the two of them working together could easily explain all aspects of this. I can't quite picture the chain of events for that, though...

[Ms Duck]

I know! But I couldn't find it. And since Elegast's theory index does encourage linking to a source, and we now know more about Rashid's mindset, I figured, may as well make an updated one. Of course, anyone with better search-fu than my own (which I admit is severely lacking) is welcome to provide links to Serack's excellent work.

There are two big issues to Mab being the culprit, and a few little ones. The big ones, of course, is that she doesn't seem able to see the future (demonstrated, in my mind, by her failure to see Lily's future at the end of Cold Days) and the fact that so long as she was defending Harry as Lea's proxy, she was limited to act only as far as Lea could. So unless Mab cheated somehow, she could only fix LC as well as Lea could, rather than as well as she herself could.

Seeing as we now know exactly how close in purpose the Gatekeeper and Mab are, I can't help but wonder if maybe they actually worked together. Certainly the two of them working together could easily explain all aspects of this. I can't quite picture the chain of events for that, though...

not to derail, but both of those have been answered:

seeing in the future is not a static future, but a potential future; what she sees are what may happen. As to if she can, even Harry (in CD ) says she does, hes just not sure how far or how well.

second is answered in text as well, in DB: she says she is required to do what lea would have done, but she is not limited to it. For example, lea knows little about the word of Kemmler, but Mab does, and she told harry things Lea does not know because she decided to.

 

I rate WAGs based on how many serious objections there are; right now there are none for Mab that I am aware of, Jim nailed down the last loose boards in CD.

Rashid has very few if any, the only big one being why?

all the other theories have several serious objections or more.

 

[wyltok]

This is a reply to wizard nelson's three replies which were written one after the other. They are inside the spoiler as a reference. These posts, in summary, discuss four points:

1. Thomas was groggy and grabbing his face like he had a bad dream when Harry came in.
2. Mab, as acting Godmother, can know about Little Chicago's flaw without needing to see into the future.
3. In a multi-book series, it is possible to provide the clue explaining a mystery in a book that takes place after the one where the mystery takes place.
4. If Rashid knows something from foresight, then temporal inertia means that Rashid will have a hard time stopping it from taking place.

My replies in order.
1. I don't think we're looking at the same part of PG. The part I'm talking about is when Harry goes back to his place and Thomas shoves the shotgun in his face. This is followed by Thomas moving out. There's no mention of Thomas being groggy.
2. Agreed. But if that's the case, what was Mab planning to do to stop Harry from blowing his head off before Molly's phone call? It makes more sense that whoever fixed LC knew that Harry would not get a chance to use it until just before the Arctis Tor raid, and that sort of knowledge still requires foresight.
3. Agreed. But when the book with the mystery includes a discussion about how sending a message to the past works, and solving the mystery seems to require sending a message to the past, I kinda have to go with Occam's razor and assume the two are related.

4. Let me see if I understand what you said here:

During the stolen car example in PG, Bob stated that if foresight shows the car being stolen, one can change the future, but the "stolen car" aspect of it will remain the same. From that you concluded that whatever was seen of the future couldn't have been "Harry's head explodes using LC", because that would fix the future, and changing it would be a paradox. Which of course, just means that whatever was seen of the future only suggested that LC was broken, rather than being something that outright showed Harry's head exploding, for example.

Please let me know if I understood your point correctly, and then I'll work on a more suitable reply. I must admit, it's actually a really good idea!

(click to show/hide)

umm thomas was also groggy and grabbing his face like he just had a bad dream. givin the very similar nature of WC demon and half reds i'd say its possible to intrance either.
        its actually far more likely for mab to know as acting godmother, i think your forgetting rashid was unsure of harry till atl TC. mab was in better position and with more power and incentive. like its totally mentioned that the FBI headquarters links up with erlking in FM? oh wait... its a mystery so laying everything on the table and making it obvious is kinda lame. not sure what telling you past self harry popped his head has to do with novikov?point was if GK got his knowledge from forsight then it would have been WAY too much, list-LC exists, it has flaw

(continuation) and harry popped his head. now if harry already popped his head then GK can't change this. if rashid only(name another way he'd know?) knows from forsight he cant change this per odin as it already happened and he learned it ATF. as someone else pointed our GK  doesn't screw around like that with time, pretty sure thats directly against the 'current' to even attempt the impossible of changing the past.
 
not entirely sure how to respond to alot of what you said because(and maybe we're just on two totally different wavelengths) i don't understand its relevance? it does seem to me your twisting facts to suit theory instead of theory to fit facts, a holmesian no, no btw.

i really should sleep before trying to explain things but.... this isn't changing the past. abby sees possibilities and uhhh argh!
just go watch that nicholas cage movie knowing (or know?) it has everything you need to figure it out yourself.

[Griffyn612]

This is a reply to wizard nelson's three replies which were written one after the other. They are inside the spoiler as a reference. These posts, in summary, discuss four points:

1. Thomas was groggy and grabbing his face like he had a bad dream when Harry came in.
2. Mab, as acting Godmother, can know about Little Chicago's flaw without needing to see into the future.
3. In a multi-book series, it is possible to provide the clue explaining a mystery in a book that takes place after the one where the mystery takes place.
4. If Rashid knows something from foresight, then temporal inertia means that Rashid will have a hard time stopping it from taking place.

My replies in order.
1. I don't think we're looking at the same part of PG. The part I'm talking about is when Harry goes back to his place and Thomas shoves the shotgun in his face. This is followed by Thomas moving out. There's no mention of Thomas being groggy.
2. Agreed. But if that's the case, what was Mab planning to do to stop Harry from blowing his head off before Molly's phone call? It makes more sense that whoever fixed LC knew that Harry would not get a chance to use it until just before the Arctis Tor raid, and that sort of knowledge still requires foresight.
3. Agreed. But when the book with the mystery includes a discussion about how sending a message to the past works, and solving the mystery seems to require sending a message to the past, I kinda have to go with Occam's razor and assume the two are related.

4. Let me see if I understand what you said here:

During the stolen car example in PG, Bob stated that if foresight shows the car being stolen, one can change the future, but the "stolen car" aspect of it will remain the same. From that you concluded that whatever was seen of the future couldn't have been "Harry's head explodes using LC", because that would fix the future, and changing it would be a paradox. Which of course, just means that whatever was seen of the future only suggested that LC was broken, rather than being something that outright showed Harry's head exploding, for example.

Please let me know if I understood your point correctly, and then I'll work on a more suitable reply. I must admit, it's actually a really good idea!

(click to show/hide)

Ugh, I hate supporting the Mab-Did-It theory, just out of boredom.  But...
2) If Mab saw with her purported precog ability that it was highly likely Harry would be going home to use LilC, she could have sent Maeve out to delay him.  Thus Maeve would have been driving the car that hit Harry.  Likewise, similar to my TTH point that maybe TTH plugged the phone back in so Harry wouldn't miss Molly's call, Maeve could have done the same  by crossing the threshold veiled, and plugged it back in.  It doesn't say in the book that he unplugged it, but it's a point that he would have normally, and must have been to groggy in the head to remember.  The thin part is that Mab nor Maeve should have been able to see enough of the future to be sure that Molly would call Harry prior to his using LilC that night.

TTH side note:  How ironic (read: foreshadowing) would it be if Bob gave the 'stole a car' example about time-travel, and then Harry ended up time-traveling back to PG and had to steal that old chrysler to hit himself to make sure he didn't use LilC pre-maturely?

[Ms Duck]

Im not sure precog is even required for fixing LC in pG; its juts simple deduction on her part. She knows she needs get Molly to AT and back in such a way that nemesis does not suspect the plan; ergo, harry needs to rescue her.

therefore, harry needs a way to track molly.. better make sure LC is up and working beforehand

[Cenphx]

4. Let me see if I understand what you said here:

During the stolen car example in PG, Bob stated that if foresight shows the car being stolen, one can change the future, but the "stolen car" aspect of it will remain the same. From that you concluded that whatever was seen of the future couldn't have been "Harry's head explodes using LC", because that would fix the future, and changing it would be a paradox. Which of course, just means that whatever was seen of the future only suggested that LC was broken, rather than being something that outright showed Harry's head exploding, for example.

Please let me know if I understood your point correctly, and then I'll work on a more suitable reply. I must admit, it's actually a really good idea!

(click to show/hide)

Wait, isn't this the same time travel paradox we dealt with in the other thread? Frickin time travel.

[Griffyn612]

Im not sure precog is even required for fixing LC in pG; its juts simple deduction on her part. She knows she needs get Molly to AT and back in such a way that nemesis does not suspect the plan; ergo, harry needs to rescue her.

therefore, harry needs a way to track molly.. better make sure LC is up and working beforehand

It all just seems so convoluted for the result.  Lea bargains with the Reds to not interfere in their war; Lea gets Infected; Mab has to cure Lea, but has to fulfill Lea's promises while she's incapacitated, so she can't act out against the Reds; so she has Molly learn dark magic, to screw with her friend's minds, so the GK detects dark magic, and out of courtesy tells Harry, so Harry has to go looking for the dark magic, so that Maeve can manipulate him into thinking its a heavy duty practitioner summoning phages, so he has to send it back on them, only to have it be Fetches, who can take Molly to Arctis Tor because Harry sent them to her, so Harry will follow them to AT to retrieve her, so that Lily can give him summer fire to fire into the wellspring, to then cause a natural reaction among winter Fae to draw everyone back to home base, allowing Maeve to slow time, keeping Winter near Arctic Tor long enough to allow Summer to then move against the Reds.

[Ms Duck]

It all just seems so convoluted for the result.  Lea bargains with the Reds to not interfere in their war; Lea gets Infected; Mab has to cure Lea, but has to fulfill Lea's promises while she's incapacitated, so she can't act out against the Reds; so she has Molly learn dark magic, to screw with her friend's minds, so the GK detects dark magic, and out of courtesy tells Harry, so Harry has to go looking for the dark magic, so that Maeve can manipulate him into thinking its a heavy duty practitioner summoning phages, so he has to send it back on them, only to have it be Fetches, who can take Molly to Arctis Tor because Harry sent them to her, so Harry will follow them to AT to retrieve her, so that Lily can give him summer fire to fire into the wellspring, to then cause a natural reaction among winter Fae to draw everyone back to home base, allowing Maeve to slow time, keeping Winter near Arctic Tor long enough to allow Summer to then move against the Reds.

that's not the result. the result is :

Harry becomes warden of DR
Mab lays a trap for her enemies
kills many of their agents lose on earth
makes Molly new winter lady

you are mistaking the first two moves for the endgame. When Mab plays chess, she plays fricken chess. 

[Cenphx]

It all just seems so convoluted for the result.  Lea bargains with the Reds to not interfere in their war; Lea gets Infected; Mab has to cure Lea, but has to fulfill Lea's promises while she's incapacitated, so she can't act out against the Reds; so she has Molly learn dark magic, to screw with her friend's minds, so the GK detects dark magic, and out of courtesy tells Harry, so Harry has to go looking for the dark magic, so that Maeve can manipulate him into thinking its a heavy duty practitioner summoning phages, so he has to send it back on them, only to have it be Fetches, who can take Molly to Arctis Tor because Harry sent them to her, so Harry will follow them to AT to retrieve her, so that Lily can give him summer fire to fire into the wellspring, to then cause a natural reaction among winter Fae to draw everyone back to home base, allowing Maeve to slow time, keeping Winter near Arctic Tor long enough to allow Summer to then move against the Reds.

Aren't all the theories on PG and SmF complicated like this though? They ALL seem to involve 11 dimensional chess.

[Griffyn612]

that's not the result. the result is :

Harry becomes warden of DR
Mab lays a trap for her enemies
kills many of their agents lose on earth
makes Molly new winter lady

you are mistaking the first two moves for the endgame. When Mab plays chess, she plays fricken chess. 

 - I don't see PG leading to Harry becoming Warden of DR.  That's more along the lines of your TC theory.
 - I don't know what trap Mab laid for her enemies in PG.  They came after Lea, and caused havok at AT, but she still doesn't seem sure which Fallen was involved, so I'm not sure how much intel she got from it.
 - She didn't kill any agents on earth in PG.  Unless you're talking about any that fell in the attack at AT.  But we don't know if the bad guys took any casualties.  The only remains spotted were those of Winter creatures.
 - It lays the foundation for a connection between Molly and Winter.  But Molly was apparently always a backup backup.  That seems like a lot of effort for a second pinch hitter.  If Mab knew of Maeve's infection in PG, then I can see her deciding a new backup may be needed.  But it doesn't explain why she didn't do to Maeve what she did to Lea.

[Ms Duck]

- I don't see PG leading to Harry becoming Warden of DR.  That's more along the lines of your TC theory.
 - I don't know what trap Mab laid for her enemies in PG.  They came after Lea, and caused havok at AT, but she still doesn't seem sure which Fallen was involved, so I'm not sure how much intel she got from it.
 - She didn't kill any agents on earth in PG.  Unless you're talking about any that fell in the attack at AT.  But we don't know if the bad guys took any casualties.  The only remains spotted were those of Winter creatures.
 - It lays the foundation for a connection between Molly and Winter.  But Molly was apparently always a backup backup.  That seems like a lot of effort for a second pinch hitter.  If Mab knew of Maeve's infection in PG, then I can see her deciding a new backup may be needed.  But it doesn't explain why she didn't do to Maeve what she did to Lea.

the PG theory and the TC theory, im my opinion, are all one thing. Its A+ B +C= type stuff, _{anditkinda paid outinCDlikemadmuttermutter}

the trap is the one she sprang in CD, end of.

where she took a trap they laid for her and inverted it to pin her enemies between a rock (DR) and a hard place ( Odin and the Erlking)

 

[wizard nelson]

@wyltok
1 ummm...... damn! uhh... yea your right. i looked thinking to find the quote, now why did i think that? Mmmm...
2 yea but not necessarily the i see the future kind. like duck i opt for the "I am mab! i've thought of everything fool!" answer along the lines of sun tzu kinda gathered intelligence. mabs just good like that, its her job.
3 i assume that was so you'd understand rashids msg and how it worked? rashid knowing to hit harry to divert him is a little iffy though. how can you get that msg across in a vague way(as i believe future GK MUST be to not screw with the timeline). i mean "harry gets into a car wreck at precisely 2:45" is too informativ. i suppose rashid steal  a car to tail harry and keep on the lookout and was driving it when future rashid sends back a description of the same car he's driving. viola 2+2=4 rashid realises he must hit harry because he's driving the car that does it. yes i know i'm supporting your idea now    and my ps3 will cut this off soon so 4 willbenextpost

[wizard nelson]

TTH side note:  How ironic (read: foreshadowing) would it be if Bob gave the 'stole a car' example about time-travel, and then Harry ended up time-traveling back to PG and had to steal that old chrysler to hit himself to make sure he didn't use LilC pre-maturely?

THAT is great butcher forshadowing. it jives right with me.

4  kinda yea. the only event in the future that would give rashid all the pertainent info needed would be harry dying. i don't see any other reason rashid could know about LC, or that it had a fatal flaw in the future except this event. thats really meddling in time there.

[wizard nelson]

not to retcon on things but it seems to me altering time requires the mortal touch of free will. just as in DB changing harry's fate was an act of free will in the face of predestination. so a god to facilitate the working and a mortal to carry out the actions. dude look at it this way. time manipulation is odin/kringles forte and harry owes him a favor. this sets up the presumed time travel jim says will probably happen. IF on the other hand the time thing refers to harry doing kringles job one snowy christmas eve and stretching time to visit every kid in the world, i'd be cool with that too