[All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite

[Mortax]

  The analysis is specifically looking for common terminology between Outsiders' magic description and mortal magic descriptions.  My hesitance to include "hungry"/"empty" is due to the lack of association with the Outsiders.  Mordite is described as empty and hungry, and consumes everything from our reality.  And Raith's magic is also listed as "empty".  But I don't think we have evidence in the books that Raith's magic immunity is tied to Outsiders.  There may have been a WoJ on it a while back, but I haven't read it recently.
Doubtful that they're infected.  I'm convinced they're involved, but they may have avoided actual infection.  They seem to fall more into Duck's theories about mortals wielding Outsiders as a weapon. 

I think Eb said something about Raith being protected by outsiders.  Back when he was explaining Mag Sr.'s death and why he thought her deathcurse did nothing.

[TheCuriousFan]

I think Eb said something about Raith being protected by outsiders.  Back when he was explaining Mag Sr.'s death and why he thought her deathcurse did nothing.

"He's protected," he said quietly. "Magic just slides off him."

"Even a death curse?"

"Useless," he said bitterly. "Raith is protected by something big. Maybe a big damned demon. Maybe even some old god. He can't be touched with magic."

[123456789blaaa]

  The analysis is specifically looking for common terminology between Outsiders' magic description and mortal magic descriptions.  My hesitance to include "hungry"/"empty" is due to the lack of association with the Outsiders.  Mordite is described as empty and hungry, and consumes everything from our reality.  And Raith's magic is also listed as "empty".  But I don't think we have evidence in the books that Raith's magic immunity is tied to Outsiders.  There may have been a WoJ on it a while back, but I haven't read it recently.
Doubtful that they're infected.  I'm convinced they're involved, but they may have avoided actual infection.  They seem to fall more into Duck's theories about mortals wielding Outsiders as a weapon. 

But the evidence was from DB.  Cowl was also badly injured at the end of that, and we haven't seen him properly in action since then.  So it's possible he's become infected by CD, but we don't know.

Mordite is from the Outside and the Mordite infused Mistfiend was referred to as an Outsider in CD (you may want to add the descriptions of it also BTW).  Also note that Harry describes Raiths magic immunity as very similar to being near Mordite (not just "empty").

Lord Raith knew about HWWB already for the curse. I believe the "something big" that was giving him his magic immunity was HWWB simply because it would be sort of dumb to call a freaking OUTSIDER (you know those things who want to devour reality) when any other entity of sufficient power could have sufficed. It makes much more sense if they have a prior working relationship.

[Elegast]

@Griffyn

So.

I liked the OP a lot, especially the tracking of keywords. After a few days, here is my reaction:

Basically you make two statements:

1. There are some keywords associated to outsider-magic/infection: oily, cloying, greasy, slithering, nauseating

2. Elaine is infected

I'm only half-convinced about the first one. Firstly, greasy is linked to all vampires, so using it to identify infected characters would lead to a lot of false positive. Secondly, while I agree those keywords are linked to the Outside, I'm not sure they are linked to the infection.

Case in point : I tried to use your technic with the scene in PG where some unknown person is using magic behind the scenes.

Here is the description of the magic.

The murk:

“What the hell,” he said, and shook the light a few times. He had his hand on his gun, the restraining strap off, but he hadn’t drawn it yet. Good man. He knew as well as I did that the hotel was going to have far more panicked attendees than potential threats.

“We’ll try mine,” I said, and got the silver pentacle on its chain from around my neck. A gentle whisper and an effort of will and the amulet began to emit a pure, silver-blue light that reached into the darkness around us, burning it away as swiftly as it pressed in, until we could see for maybe fifteen feet around us. Beyond that was just a murky vagueness— not so much a cloud or a mist as a simple lack of light.

The ward:

struggled to ignore the sounds of frightened people in the dark and focused on my magical senses. I reached out to the cold and the gloom, and found it a vaguely familiar kind of spellworking, though I couldn’t remember precisely where I’d encountered it before.

I nodded once at him, turned, and plunged into the darkness, Rawlins at my back. Screams erupted around us, sometimes accompanied by the sight of stumbling, terrified people. Rawlins nudged them toward the walls, barked at them in a tone of pure paternal authority to stay near them, to move carefully for the exits. The gloom began to press in closer to me, and it became an effort of will to hold up the light in my amulet against it. A few steps more and the air grew even colder. Walking forward became an effort, like wading through waist-deep water. I had to lean against it, and I heard a grunt of effort come out of my mouth. “What’s wrong?” Rawlins asked, his voice tight.

We passed under one of the hotel’s emergency light fixtures, its floodlights only dim orange rings in the murk until my amulet’s light burned the shadows away. “Dark magic,” I growled through clenched teeth. “A kind of ward. Trying to keep me from moving ahead.”

We see some keywords, but not the ones linked to Nemesis according to the OP.

So that would mean that the caster was not infected.

The way I see it, if my theory about Maeve at Splattercon!! is true, then yours is false, as Maeve is infected. So that weakens a lot yours as mine has 35% chances of being correct.

Now let's assume that your theory is right. Then it helps us a lot to understand that scene.  Who are the candidates? Maeve, Elaine, Sandra, Mavra. Maeve can't be the one. Probably not Elaine, as she's linked to the keywords. So it's Mavra and Sandra. I would say it's not Mavra as : the keyword empty is not there, she was not in Chicago, she doesn't care about the event in PG. So that leaves Sandra.

So that would mean that it's Sandra. Guess we'll have to wait for a WOJ to be sure.

Concerning Elaine, I agree that she becomes quite suspicious.

To conclude, I would guess that the keywords are linked to all outsider-based magic, but not to the infection. So I still believe that Cowl is infected, and that Maeve was at Splattercon!!!.

[Griffyn612]

@Griffyn

So.

I liked the OP a lot, especially the tracking of keywords. After a few days, here is my reaction:

Basically you make two statements:

1. There are some keywords associated to outsider-magic/infection: oily, cloying, greasy, slithering, nauseating

2. Elaine is infected

I'm only half-convinced about the first one. Firstly, greasy is linked to all vampires, so using it to identify infected characters would lead to a lot of false positive. Secondly, while I agree those keywords are linked to the Outside, I'm not sure there are linked to the infection.

Case in point : I tried to use your technic with the scene in PG where some unknown person is using magic behind the scenes.

Here is the description of the magic.

The murk:The ward:
We see some keywords, but not the ones linked to Nemesis according to the OP.

So that would mean that the caster was not infected.

The way I see it, if my theory about Maeve at Splattercon!! is true, then yours is false, as Maeve is infected. So that weakens a lot yours as mine has 35% chances of being correct.

Now let's assume that your theory is right. Then it helps us a lot to understand that scene.  Who are the candidates? Maeve, Elaine, Sandra, Mavra. Maeve can't be the one. Probably not Elaine, as she's linked to the keywords. So it's Mavra and Sandra. I would say it's not Mavra as : the keyword empty is not there, she was not in Chicago, she doesn't care about the event in PG. So that leaves Sandra.

So that would mean that it's either Maeve or Sandra. Guess we'll have to wait for a WOJ to be sure.

Concerning Elaine, I agree that she becomes quite suspicious.

To conclude, I would guess that the keywords are linked to all outsider-based magic, but not to the infection. So I still believe that Cowl is infected, and that Maeve was at Splattercon!!!.

My first intention was to make an observation of key words in use to describe Outsiders, specifically used to describe their magic or magical essence. 

My second intention was to look for use of those same words to describe the magic or magical essence of other practitioners. 

There are numerous references to greasy and oily physical presences, which have no bearing on a magic essence.  Vanilla's with greasy hair, greasy Rampires, etc.

But the key references I made were those referring to the subject's magic use.  Specifically, most were when using black magic. 

Elaine
Elaine uses magic several times in SK and again WN.  She traps Harry, she pulls the thornbush apart, she veils herself, she uses her lightning chain, she fires green combat magic, for example.  And in none of those instances did Harry describe her magic as being greasy or oily.  The only time that she apparently used magic with those descriptions was when she cast an illegal mind fog that, per Harry, is bad mojo, if not outright black magic.  That makes me believe that her casting dark magic was tainted by the Infection.  Similar to how hellfire and soulfire both automatically fused with Harry's blasts when he didn't intend it.  It was bleeding through. In the case of Infection, it would, by necessity of the theory, only bleed through when dark magic was used.

Proven Guilty
To your case about PG.  If the greasy affect is a side-affect of some-one wielding dark magic, and Maeve cast the myrk spell, then we should expect it.  But since I'm still not convinced it was Maeve casting the myrk, I'm not convinced that's proof against the theory.  But if it was Maeve, then it would either have to be an exception of the infection not bleeding through, like with Elaine, or it was because the spell wasn't 'dark' enough.  That's a weak defense, and wouldn't buy it myself.  The only way the theory could account for it would be that it wasn't Maeve who cast the myrk, or it was left out of the description by JB.

My belief is that the myrk was cast by TTFH, which would still fit, as long as Harry himself isn't infected.  Which he may be.  We don't know yet.

We can't dismiss it being Mavra, as there are also theories that Sandra was Mavra.  Someone sent Michael's eldest down a path of dark magic; Mavra would have the means, motive, and opportunity to do so.  If Sandra/Mavra cast the myrk, then the theory stands.

Blamp Exceptions

The biggest issue I've found so far with my own hypothesis is that there are two additional descriptions I found of Blamps that fit the Outsider descriptions.  In both cases, it was describing the magical essence of the Blamp, since neither were casting spells. 

BR-pg. 20 (Black Court Vampire)

     A sort of greasy, nauseating cold flooded over my perceptions, stealing my
breath.

BR-pg. 123 (Black Court Vampire)

     I managed to get to one knee just as a cold, slithery feeling washed down my spine.

For these, it's reasonable to assume that the words are simply favorite of JB to describe dark magic in general, and have no bearing on Outsider infection.  OR, there's a tie between Blampires and Outsiders.  I find the latter unlikely, since Blamps are tied to Necromancy, which was described in detail in DB, and was lacking from Cowl and Kumori.  Grevane and Corpsetaker both had some key words in their descriptions, but it's far more likely at that point that the words are favorites.

[wizard nelson]

the source of necromancy has been left unexplored though. it gets its power from being NOT, this could be tied to outsider as hades, the god the afterlife has always been portrayed as strictly against it(he feels it impunes on his kingship of the dead). not that it necessarily equates being directly from outsider. as Evil bob uses the wolfwaffen(these have a specific name in other fantasy genre, esp forgotten realms) and he was a creation of the most powerful known necromancer its likely necromancy has its roots with anubis. which if you know anything of eygpt and its ancient religions makes alot of since. problem is anubis was knocked off his throne at some point and either joined with the fallen like the fomor, was ejected from reality or obliviated. the first choice being the most likely. i know this proves nothing but i wanted to point out the possible anubis connection to necromancy's origins.

[peregrine]

Bob was owned by Kemmler, but I don't think Bob was created by Kemmler.

[Griffyn612]

Bob was owned by Kemmler, but I don't think Bob was created by Kemmler.

Bob was around before Kemmler, but Evil Bob was a personification created by Kemmler.  I'm figuring that's what Nelson meant. 

And my only issue with necromancy being tied to the Outsiders is that it literally means almost everything in the series would then be tied to the Outsiders.  It would make them the Dr. Claw to Harry's Inspector Gadget.  (And yes, that would make Molly into Penny and Mouse into Brain)

[peregrine]

Evil Bob, to my mind, is Kemmler's Bob entirely excised from regular Bob, without any of his less murderous history.  Not something "created" by Kemmler, but the condensed version of regular Bob's interactions with Kemmler.  A radical difference in personality would be explained by the abrupt change in ownership, rather than each new owner making a new shell program.

[wizard nelson]

thats what i meant about bob yes. its not so much outsiders, umm how to explain? everything has been shown as a balance (even if it isn't actually an equal balance) such as  reality verses outside, heaven vs hell, summer verses winter, 'life' magic vs 'being not'. some things that are clearly a part of reality still holds aspects of the outside chaotic emptiness. doesn't necessarily mean its outsider related. personally i see this as a sort of balance too. indeed if winter hadn't been shown as holder of the gates i'd have said they were antithetical to reality as obviously MW is the supreme unmaker. i think the best way to put it is with a metaphor. wyldfae are clearly of the sidhe but not actually under the courts domain. necromancy is of the outside aspect of emptiness but not actually under outsiders domain?

[wizard nelson]

Evil Bob, to my mind, is Kemmler's Bob entirely excised from regular Bob, without any of his less murderous history.  Not something "created" by Kemmler, but the condensed version of regular Bob's interactions with Kemmler.  A radical difference in personality would be explained by the abrupt change in ownership, rather than each new owner making a new shell program.

bob clearly states in DB kemmler twisted his purpose and made him into something he was not, made = created or close enough. its clear kemmlers interactions with bob were not limited to what other wizards did with him.

oh god did i just say that? everybody run! here comes the kemmler/bob shippers! RUN! run for your sanity. don't forget the brain bleach!

lol

[TheCuriousFan]

bob clearly states in DB kemmler twisted his purpose and made him into something he was not, made = created or close enough. its clear kemmlers interactions with bob were not limited to what other wizards did with him.

Could that be because Kemmler basically used him as a wrecking ball more than as a research assistant?

[wizard nelson]

Could that be because Kemmler basically used him as a wrecking ball more than as a research assistant?

wrecking ball how? i was thinking, since bob possesses his own magic that kemmler twisted him into working with the 'true' magic. making him kinda necromantic in nature.

[TheCuriousFan]

wrecking ball how? i was thinking, since bob possesses his own magic that kemmler twisted him into working with the 'true' magic. making him kinda necromantic in nature.

By sending him out to go kill things and the like, Luccio's comments in Small Favour make it sound like Bob was sent out to go commit a few atrocities while under Kemmler's control.

[Ben de Wal]

isn't in dead beat that Kemmler twisted bobs nature?