[All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite

[wizard nelson]

By sending him out to go kill things and the like, Luccio's comments in Small Favour make it sound like Bob was sent out to go commit a few atrocities while under Kemmler's control.

ah... damn. only ever read SmF, BR and WN (WK?) once as they are not part of my collection. so its been awhile, really need to head to the library and borrow them for a refresher.
maybe bob asked to be sent? as bob now asks for permission to have orgies at frat parties evil bob gets his kicks killing stuff?

[Griffyn612]

By sending him out to go kill things and the like, Luccio's comments in Small Favour make it sound like Bob was sent out to go commit a few atrocities while under Kemmler's control.

I think that's a bit of speculation based on her brief comments, no?

     “Nor would I,” Luccio said. “That could be a true nightmare. All that knowledge, without conscience to direct it. The necromancer Kemmler had such a spirit in his service, a sort of miniature version of the Archive. Nowhere near as powerful, but it had been studying and learning beside wizards for generations, and the things it was capable of were appalling.” She shook her head.
     I took a sip of tea, because otherwise the gulp would have been suspicious. She was talking about Bob. And she was right about what Bob was capable of doing. When I’d unlocked the personality he’d taken on under some of his former owners, he’d nearly killed me.
     “The Wardens destroyed it, of course,” she said.
     No, they hadn’t. Justin DuMorne, former Warden, hadn’t destroyed the skull. He’d smuggled it from Kemmler’s lab and kept it in his own—until I’d burned him to death, and taken it from him in turn. “It was just too much power under too little restraint. And it’s entirely possible that the Archive could become a similar threat on a far larger scale. I know you care about the child, Harry. But you had to be warned. You might not be doing her any favors by acting like her friend.”

Butcher, Jim (2009-03-03). Small Favor: A Novel of the Dresden Files (pp. 408-409). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

[TheCuriousFan]

You're one to talk when it comes to wild speculation.

[Griffyn612]

You're one to talk when it comes to wild speculation.

Come now, all of my speculation is well cultured and proper.  It even sets the silverware correctly for dinner.   

[wyltok]

A random thought about the idea of Elaine being infected. In White Night, after the fight in Thomas' boat where Harry turns the lake's surface to ice and survives being shot at with a machine gun, Thomas, Elaine, the other practitioners, and an unconcious Harry go to ground. Harry spends 8 hours unconscious, most of that time without Thomas around, and awakens to Elaine performing a spell on his head. She claims that it is Reiki, but it would seem to me to be the perfect opportunity for her to infect Harry.

It is worth pointing out as well that it is after this book that Harry's headaches begin.

Of course, on the other hand, even if Harry was knocked out, Lash was not, and I'm fairly certain she would have let Harry know if Elaine did try to infect him in his sleep.

On the gripping hand, Lash mentioned that she recognized Vittorio's possesion by an Outsider because she had felt such a presence before. Maybe she meant in Elaine?

[Elegast]

Proven Guilty
To your case about PG.  If the greasy affect is a side-affect of some-one wielding dark magic, and Maeve cast the myrk spell, then we should expect it.  But since I'm still not convinced it was Maeve casting the myrk, I'm not convinced that's proof against the theory.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I found another clue that Maeve was at Splattercon!!!.

In CD we have a description:

the kind of look that gets girls that age in trouble with men who should be old enough to know better.

colored in all glacial shades of blue and green and deep violet,

Now let me quote the keyword analysis with earlier material:

I give you the official descriptions of Maeve:

The young woman who entered the bar could have been Lily’s sister. She had the same exotic beauty, the same canted, feline eyes, the same pale, flawless skin. But this one’s hair was worn in long, ragged strands of varying lengths, like a Raggedy Ann doll, each one dyed a slightly different color from frozen seas—pale blues and greens, as though each had borrowed its color from a different glacier. Her eyes were a cold, brilliant shade of green, almost entirely darkened by pupils dilated as though with drugs or arousal. A slender silver hoop gleamed at one side of her nose, and a collar of black leather studded with silver snowflakes encircled the graceful line of her slender throat. She wore sandals and cut-off blue jean shorts—very cut-off, and very tight. A tight, white T-shirt strained across her chest, and read, in pale blue letters stretched into intriguing curves, “YOUR BOYFRIEND WANTS ME.”

She looked young. Young enough to make a man feel guilty for thinking the wrong thoughts, but old enough to make it difficult not to. Her hair had been bound into long dreadlocks, each of them dyed a different shade, ranging from a deep lavender to pale blues and greens to pure white, so that it almost seemed that her hair had been formed from glacial ice. She wore leather pants of dark, dark blue, laced and open up the outside seams from calf to hip. Her boots matched the pants. She wore a white T-shirt tight enough to show the tips of her breasts straining against the fabric, framing the words OFF WITH HIS HEAD. She had hacked the shirt off at the top of her rib cage, leaving pale flesh exposed, along with a glitter of silver flashing at her navel.

So "young enough but old enough" is now used twice to describe her. This keyword is used a third time in the DF:

Two girls, both too young for me to think adult thoughts about, sidled by in black-and-purple clothing and makeup that left a lot of skin bare, their faces painted pale, trickles of fake blood at the corners of their mouths. One of them smiled at me, and she had fangs.

[Elegast]

Blamp Exceptions

The biggest issue I've found so far with my own hypothesis is that there are two additional descriptions I found of Blamps that fit the Outsider descriptions.  In both cases, it was describing the magical essence of the Blamp, since neither were casting spells. 

BR-pg. 20 (Black Court Vampire)
BR-pg. 123 (Black Court Vampire)
For these, it's reasonable to assume that the words are simply favorite of JB to describe dark magic in general, and have no bearing on Outsider infection.  OR, there's a tie between Blampires and Outsiders.  I find the latter unlikely, since Blamps are tied to Necromancy, which was described in detail in DB, and was lacking from Cowl and Kumori.  Grevane and Corpsetaker both had some key words in their descriptions, but it's far more likely at that point that the words are favorites.

There are some highly speculative theories that the Blampires are linked to the outside.

• both are linked to unlife
• the BAT seems to be the ultimate consequence of the fall of the Black Council
• Typo in White Night? (missing WOJ)

MsDuck on the subject: here.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

is it worth thinking in terms of a control sample of whether Jim uses these words to describe dark magic in general that has no Outsider connection by checking for their frequency associated with hostile magic in the Codex Alera ?

[Griffyn612]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I found another clue that Maeve was at Splattercon!!!.

In CD we have a description:
Now let me quote the keyword analysis with earlier material:

So "young enough but old enough" is now used twice to describe her. This keyword is used a third time in the DF:

Actually, Maeve being at Splattercon!!! doesn't completely disrupt the TTH theory, seeing as the theory itself is an attempt at explaining the unexplainable.  My dissatisfaction with the "Maeve was at Splattercon!!!" theory is because now that she's dead, we presumably can never find out what role she played.

I see only 4 options for the myrk at Splattercon!!!.
 - Maeve was there, and cast the myrk to cause further disruption and chaos for the fetch.
 - The fetch itself cast the myrk, just like the hobs in SmF did.
 - Mab cast the myrk remotely from AT.
 - TTH, as the WK, cast the myrk to slow down the phage's attack.

The issue with it being Maeve is that we don't have any proof that Maeve was there, other than the lil' vamp.  The issue with the fetch doing it is that none of the other fetches did it.  The issue with Mab doing it is that she was busy in AT.  And the issue with TTH doing it is... because he wasn't there?

There's a few things I like to point out about that particular attack.
 1) The fetch presumably manifested in the room itself, based on Harry's observation at the end that the fetch came through Rosie's compact mirror.  So who wrenched open the door with enough strength to rip it off its hinges?
 2) The myrk cast by the hobbs in SmF wiped out all light, including Harry's amulet, but did nothing to impede his progress physically.  But the myrk in PG allowed both Harry's amulet and staff runes to glow enough around him to see up to 15 feet, yet there was a physical ward included that impeded his ability to navigate toward the theatre.
 3) Harry observed (once again) that the magic seemed familiar.  But Harry hadn't experienced a myrk yet in the books, and hadn't felt any magic of Maeve's, other than her come-hither trick.
 4) Someone was observed leaving the theatre, and then the myrk and pressure left.  If Mab did it remotely, or the fetch did it itself, that observation wouldn't have been necessary.

What I try to do is explain all facets of that encounter.  Mavra being there does some, but not all.  Same for Maeve.  The door thing is what gets the Maeve argument.  If the fetch did come through the mirror, then it didn't come in through the door.  That means something or someone else ripped the door off it's hinges.  Maeve wouldn't have a reason to do that.  In fact, Maeve would want the door closed, to keep everyone trapped in, thus causing more terror and leaving more victims.

Here's how TTH answers each issue.
 1) The fetch manifested itself in the room, like Harry described.  TTH goes running to the theatre with WK power, and wrenches the door open. 
 2) TTHarry casts the myrk to blind the fetch, and casts the ward to slow the fetch.  It affects the other Harry because its magic-based.  Rawlins didn't seem to be impeded.
 3) TTHarry recognized a method of casting that is similar to his own, but he's not used to feeling it with the dark-magic style of the WK spells.
 4) After PG Harry kills the phage, TTH runs out and drops the castings.

Here's how Maeve answers each issue.
 1) The fetch manifested outside the room, and Harry was wrong about his observation at the end of the book.
 2) Maeve cast the myrk and ward to slow Harry down, thus allowing more people to get attacked.  How this fits with Maeve-did-it motive, I don't know.
 3) Harry recognized the essence of Maeve's magic, maybe because its similar to what he'd sensed of Mab in their encounters.
 4) After Harry kills the phage, Maeve leaves.  But I'm still unclear on her full motivation.

There are some highly speculative theories that the Blampires are linked to the outside.

• both are linked to unlife
• the BAT seems to be the ultimate consequence of the fall of the Black Council
• Typo in White Night? (missing WOJ)

MsDuck on the subject: here.

I could see that being the case.  But like I said, if everyone and everything is Outsider-based, then it's pretty confining.  And it works against Ms Duck's theory that the Black Council was Maggie's anti-Blamp task force who used Outsiders against the Blamps.  That'd be fighting fire with fire, rather than being productive.

is it worth thinking in terms of a control sample of whether Jim uses these words to describe dark magic in general that has no Outsider connection by checking for their frequency associated with hostile magic in the Codex Alera ?

I'm not sure.  I search using the ebook copies of TDF.  I don't have ebook copies of the Alera series.  I guess the thing to look for there is references to people who have been infected/turned by the Vord.

[Elegast]

I see only 4 options for the myrk at Splattercon!!!.
 - Maeve was there, and cast the myrk to cause further disruption and chaos for the fetch.
 - The fetch itself cast the myrk, just like the hobs in SmF did.
 - Mab cast the myrk remotely from AT.
 - TTH, as the WK, cast the myrk to slow down the phage's attack.

I would add Sandra to the list. And we have no proof that the myrk in SmF was cast by the Hobbs.

There's a few things I like to point out about that particular attack.
 1) The fetch presumably manifested in the room itself, based on Harry's observation at the end that the fetch came through Rosie's compact mirror.  So who wrenched open the door with enough strength to rip it off its hinges?
 2) The myrk cast by the hobbs in SmF wiped out all light, including Harry's amulet, but did nothing to impede his progress physically.  But the myrk in PG allowed both Harry's amulet and staff runes to glow enough around him to see up to 15 feet, yet there was a physical ward included that impeded his ability to navigate toward the theatre.
 3) Harry observed (once again) that the magic seemed familiar.  But Harry hadn't experienced a myrk yet in the books, and hadn't felt any magic of Maeve's, other than her come-hither trick.

1) That's a really good point. It really strengthen the TTH theory. But as I'm stubborn, I'm still going to counter : Maeve didn't want to kill a lot of people (Mab says somewhere she never kill without purpose). She cast the ward to make Harry think there's a sorcerer calling the fetch, but she didn't want to let the whole theatre die:

“A summoner,” I said. “Given that someone actually threw a ward in my way the last time the phage showed up, that seems to be the most likely of the three.”

2) That's really problematic. Two possibilities: Mab was the one doing the job in SmF, hence the superior power. Or maybe the hobbs create their own myrk. There were hundreds of them, so their combined power would be significant.
3)Harry saw Maeve using her power in SK. And it leaked too.

[TheCuriousFan]

1) That's a really good point. It really strengthen the TTH theory. But as I'm stubborn, I'm still going to counter : Maeve didn't want to kill a lot of people (Mab says somewhere she never kill without purpose). She cast the ward to make Harry think there's a sorcerer calling the fetch, but she didn't want to let the whole theatre die: 

"Yes," mused Mab's voice. "You will, won't you? And yes, you know that I do not kill indiscriminately, nor encourage my Knight to do so."

Here you go.

[wyltok]

I see only 4 options for the myrk at Splattercon!!!.
 - Maeve was there, and cast the myrk to cause further disruption and chaos for the fetch.
 - The fetch itself cast the myrk, just like the hobs in SmF did.
 - Mab cast the myrk remotely from AT.
 - TTH, as the WK, cast the myrk to slow down the phage's attack.

The issue with it being Maeve is that we don't have any proof that Maeve was there, other than the lil' vamp.  The issue with the fetch doing it is that none of the other fetches did it.  The issue with Mab doing it is that she was busy in AT.  And the issue with TTH doing it is... because he wasn't there?

There's a few things I like to point out about that particular attack.
 1) The fetch presumably manifested in the room itself, based on Harry's observation at the end that the fetch came through Rosie's compact mirror.  So who wrenched open the door with enough strength to rip it off its hinges?
 2) The myrk cast by the hobbs in SmF wiped out all light, including Harry's amulet, but did nothing to impede his progress physically.  But the myrk in PG allowed both Harry's amulet and staff runes to glow enough around him to see up to 15 feet, yet there was a physical ward included that impeded his ability to navigate toward the theatre.
 3) Harry observed (once again) that the magic seemed familiar.  But Harry hadn't experienced a myrk yet in the books, and hadn't felt any magic of Maeve's, other than her come-hither trick.
 4) Someone was observed leaving the theatre, and then the myrk and pressure left.  If Mab did it remotely, or the fetch did it itself, that observation wouldn't have been necessary.

I propose an option #5. Molly did it.

The reason why it's familiar to Dresden is because it is a mental compulsion similar to the mind fog used by Elaine in Summer Knight that's urging him to stop moving forward (and he breaks it the same way, using his amulet). Really, when you look at this murk ward, it is precisely the kind of spell that a pre-trial Molly would use: a mental compulsion backed by an illusion of darkness (she keeps the illusion of darkness in her post-trial days, too, btw; it's the same spell she used against Luccio during Turn Coat).

We also know from the end of the book, when Harry confronts her at the church, that Molly can summon a not inconsiderate amount of power subconsciously, so she has the oomph for it. And it makes perfect sense for Molly to be near Rosie, since she told Sandra about how worried she was about Rosie in the prior scene, and it makes sense for Molly to hide from Harry rather than reveal her magic, since she's been doing it for years now.

Question is, what about the cold? Here's the thing, though: if you look at the last attack, we have the same coldness happen (it causes a fog to pop up), even though there is no murk that time. So the coldness and the murk are not actually related! The coldness is due to the fetch's presence, while the murk ward is due to another presence, specifically (in my opinion) Molly. Or Maeve, or TTH, or insert your alternative here. But really, I still say a mental compulsion / illusion spell yells "Molly did it!" to me.

[Griffyn612]

I would add Sandra to the list. And we have no proof that the myrk in SmF was cast by the Hobbs.

1) That's a really good point. It really strengthen the TTH theory. But as I'm stubborn, I'm still going to counter : Maeve didn't want to kill a lot of people (Mab says somewhere she never kill without purpose). She cast the ward to make Harry think there's a sorcerer calling the fetch, but she didn't want to let the whole theatre die: 
2) That's really problematic. Two possibilities: Mab was the one doing the job in SmF, hence the superior power. Or maybe the hobbs create their own myrk. There were hundreds of them, so their combined power would be significant.
3)Harry saw Maeve using her power in SK. And it leaked too.

I usually think if Sandra as Mavra.  So I didn't list her separately.  But she'd be a good inclusion.
1) Maeve doesn't seem to hold much stock in human life.  Why would she care about convention goers?  And why would she be working with Mab on the situation?  We're fairly confident that Maeve was Infected at that point.  If anything, she'd be doing Mab's bidding, but stretching the limits.  And I still don't know why she had to be pretending there was a summoner bringing the fetches.  Molly was technically summoning them, which is why they went to her when Harry flipped it.  She wasn't conscious of it, since it seemed to be a by-product.
2) Harry speculates in-book that the hobbs were pulling their own myrk across from the NN.  He seemed to imply that was a normal tactic for them, and since they're basically allergic to light, I'd agree.  No point in them ever crossing over if someone else always has to help by casting a myrk for them.  But the fetches don't have the necessity, so it seems less likely they would be able to do it themselves.
3) That he did.  I forgot about the magic used against Slate in their first encounter, and again briefly at the battle.

I propose an option #5. Molly did it.

The reason why it's familiar to Dresden is because it is a mental compulsion similar to the mind fog used by Elaine in Summer Knight that's urging him to stop moving forward (and he breaks it the same way, using his amulet). Really, when you look at this murk ward, it is precisely the kind of spell that a pre-trial Molly would use: a mental compulsion backed by an illusion of darkness (she keeps the illusion of darkness in her post-trial days, too, btw; it's the same spell she used against Luccio during Turn Coat).

We also know from the end of the book, when Harry confronts her at the church, that Molly can summon a not inconsiderate amount of power subconsciously, so she has the oomph for it. And it makes perfect sense for Molly to be near Rosie, since she told Sandra about how worried she was about Rosie in the prior scene, and it makes sense for Molly to hide from Harry rather than reveal her magic, since she's been doing it for years now.

Question is, what about the cold? Here's the thing, though: if you look at the last attack, we have the same coldness happen (it causes a fog to pop up), even though there is no murk that time. So the coldness and the murk are not actually related! The coldness is due to the fetch's presence, while the murk ward is due to another presence, specifically (in my opinion) Molly. Or Maeve, or TTH, or insert your alternative here. But really, I still say a mental compulsion / illusion spell yells "Molly did it!" to me.

So your theory is that a barely trained Molly cast a myrk over a large part of the convention center and a ward that held Harry back together, on her own, for the first time, while watching her friend get attacked by a monster and her other friend died?

Sorry, I don't buy that it was Molly.  It's completely against her character to allow people to be killed in front of her, especially since we know she's empathic and tends to feel emotions so deeply.  All that terror and death would have torn her up.

Myrk, darkness, and cold are all part of Winter.  It makes sense either for Mab, Maeve, TTWKH, or the fetches to use it.  I imagine Sandra or Mavra would have their own spells to cast that would be similar but different.  And Molly would make the light disappear in Harry's head as an illusion, not cast a physical myrk that could be cut back with the light of his staff and pendant.  That's not her style. 

[wyltok]

So your theory is that a barely trained Molly cast a myrk over a large part of the convention center and a ward that held Harry back together, on her own, for the first time, while watching her friend get attacked by a monster and her other friend died?

Sorry, I don't buy that it was Molly.  It's completely against her character to allow people to be killed in front of her, especially since we know she's empathic and tends to feel emotions so deeply.  All that terror and death would have torn her up.

...Actually, no. I'm saying Molly made the myrk specifically to try to protect her friends from the monster and keep it back (it worked, too; Rosie lived). After all, it's the only magic she knows at the time (heck, if you look at it, what she did then and what she did in Cold Days and Changes is pretty much the same). That it also stopped Harry was incidental. Keep in mind, emotions fuel magic; the terror she was feeling is likely the perfect type of emotion to fuel a "keep away from me and my friends!" ward.

[Griffyn612]

...Actually, no. I'm saying Molly made the myrk specifically to try to protect her friends from the monster and keep it back (it worked, too; Rosie lived). After all, it's the only magic she knows at the time (heck, if you look at it, what she did then and what she did in Cold Days and Changes is pretty much the same). That it also stopped Harry was incidental. Keep in mind, emotions fuel magic; the terror she was feeling is likely the perfect type of emotion to fuel a "keep away from me and my friends!" ward.

I don't see where casting a myrk, which is a physical manifestation, and casting an illusion, which is a mental or light manipulation, are teh same thing.  I don't see where an amateur spellcaster with no experience or training can cast a physical myrk and a physical ward, especially when their natural talent lies in non-physical magic.

In addition, I've always thought that Molly was busy casting at the time of the attacks.  Molly was trying to scare Nelson and Rosie.  At the first attack, in the bathroom, we don't know where Molly was.  But the second attack, which was the Rosie attack, Molly took off, saying there were things she needed to do.  For the third spell, when Harry reversed it back on the caster, there was a delay.  He thought it would be sooner, but it took a while.  That was because Molly was in the car with Charity and Forthill, driving home.  As soon as he got home, the third attack commenced.

I think Molly was casting a spell that focused on her friends, trying to keep up the induced fear in them, so that they wouldn't abuse.  The fetches came across from the NN in those places (Nelson in the bathroom; Rosie in the theatre) because they were drawn to the fear spell.  For the third attack, they remained at the convention because of the build-up of fear there due to the other attacks and the movies being shown. 

If someone else had been casting to bring the fetches across, or even send them, then Harry's spell would have sent the fetches at them, not at Molly.