Law Talk

[Troy]

Whose jurisdiction do half-kind fall under?

[Tedronai]

This is not a subject well discussed in the fiction (I don't recall much, if any, exposure to practitioner-half-kind), but it is implied that, where Changelings are concerned, the Faerie Courts have jurisdiction.

[blackstaff67]

Under 1st Law violations, I've noted near everything possible regarding it, save the exceptions mentioned in Storm Front, namely 1) self-defense and 2) defending the innocent/defenseless. 

White Council aside, if I magic-kill someone attacking the innocent/defenseless (say, a church or boy scout troop, to give clear-cut examples), will the Cosmos give me a pass?

[Theonlyspiral]

My gut says no. If you outright end him with a fireball and he's human, then yeah you're taking lawbreaker.

[Mrmdubois]

Keep in mind that narratively that means you believed with our entire being that the person you killed needed to die.  You're pretty likely to have been doing that to the bogeymen that have been coming after you too though and for some reason they don't stain your soul.  A lot of picking up Lawbreaker has to do with self perception, not just the outside mechanics of Wardens coming after you.  So there's a lot of factors to take into consideration when you break a Law.  Do you think you did?  Do they think you did?  Will you actually take the power?  A lot of that can come down to context.

[Lavecki121]

I think there is also a differentiation between: "This person must die" and "I dont want to die"

[Tedronai]

More relevant than the question of whether the deceased 'needed to die', I believe, is the question of whether the practitioner has the right to decide who needs to die.  That, I believe, is much more likely key to the corruption of the soul.

[Crazy Wilhelm]

Why not just incapacitate the target when you take them out and turn them over to the proper authorities?

[blackstaff67]

Assume multiple targets that a) posses Inhuman Qualities and b) disdain for mortal authorities.  Note that it's rather hard to merely incapacitate someone with Evocation given it's short duration.  You're going to have to inflict damage to stop them, period.

Technically you can say, "I'm aiming to batter their legs to the point of uselessness" and then roll to hit.  You can then (if you win) define taking them out as exactly that, but these folks aren't interested in meekly surrendering.  We're looking at something/someone brainwashed into having most of Free Will removed; we talking "I hate these people to the point of fanaticism and I will not surrender to them" levels that we may face (rather like Denarian mortal cultists). 

[Mrmdubois]

Incapacitation is very possible with the narrative control that players share with the GM.  It's pretty much impossible to be forced to or accidentally kill without Compels being involved.  Which in game means that you never have to be in a position of taking Lawbreaker when you don't want to if you never push the boundary cases, like killing in self defense.  The grey areas are grey because they're up for lots of individual interpretation and you wander into them at your peril.

[Crazy Wilhelm]

You shouldn't let hate cloud your judgment, though. Incapacitate and Apprehend are the watchwords of the day. I mean, I guess your character could be some "morally grey" feller that flippantly executes folks, but then we would have reached one of those there Ethical empasse-thing-a-ma-jigs.

[blackstaff67]

Fair enough   

[Crazy Wilhelm]

It is a good point though, considering the case where some characters just can't really ask anybody for help with things like this. What do you do with the baddies if and when you can defeat them? Do you just trust that some day they'll stop trying to get back at you if you don't kill them? I mean, you could just kill them, and keep killing them, but is that the road you want to go down? It can be tough to be a pariah-creature.

[Tedronai]

Incapacitate them with magic, then stomp their faces in with your boot in a purely mundane, if quite messy, fashion.  Remove your boot.  Burn or otherwise render it useless as evidence in the mundane justice system (magic helps here, too).

Wardens use swords instead of boots, but swords draw attention, and are cliche.

[vultur]

Keep in mind that narratively that means you believed with our entire being that the person you killed needed to die.  You're pretty likely to have been doing that to the bogeymen that have been coming after you too though and for some reason they don't stain your soul.

I think this is because, in the Dresdenverse, there's a very real metaphysical difference between mortals and full-on supernaturals. Supernaturals aren't really people in the fullest sense (I think there's a WoJ saying that with reference to Bob). A mortal has all this potential/conflict/free will, etc bound up with its life and existence that a random faerie or spirit or Blampire doesn't.

 There are certainly edge cases -- generally arising when you've got a mortal and a monster sharing space in one mind (White Court vampire, hexenwolf, Denarian), or a mortal and a proto-monster/influence like a Red Court infection or (maybe) a Knight's Mantle -- but the extreme cases (normal mortals/minor talents and practitioners/people of faith on one hand, and pure supernaturals like Rampires, Blampires, spirits and demons, etc on the other hand) are quite clear.