WAG of fate. spoilers!

[jb2point0]

Not sure that follows from my comment. I was questioning the basic concept that Nemesis could have been an Outsider all along, and only peripherally whether an Outsider can stay for long in our world. Also, "immortal" does not equate to "Outsider".

I was going along the lines of Nemesis being a deity, and Outsiders are more or less Old Ones and their minions, so a slight misstep in my wording.

What I'm saying is, I think the Outsiders were not always Outsiders, their removal from reality to beyond the gates is what made them Outsiders, and this removal is some process that may occur to different entities at different points in history.

[GrandPanjandrum]

I was going along the lines of Nemesis being a deity, and Outsiders are more or less Old Ones and their minions, so a slight misstep in my wording.

What I'm saying is, I think the Outsiders were not always Outsiders, their removal from reality to beyond the gates is what made them Outsiders, and this removal is some process that may occur to different entities at different points in history.

Oooooo...nice connection to the Oblivion War...and a reason that the bad guys seem to use the same hang-outs (Dock hang-out in Cold Days....Dock hang-out in Back-up)

[KevinSig]

We know that one of Nemisis's other names is Lord of Slowest Terror.  (Blood Rites, the chant that invoked He Who Walks Behind, who is said to be Lord of Slowest Terror's Right hand.)

Is Nemisis or Lachesis associated with slow terror?  If not, it might put a crimp in your theory.

Or not.  I just thought I'd point this out.


Still, I wouldn't think Nemisis (the Greek god) would be considered forgotten enough, to negate existence.  So, maybe the Outer Gates don't have any effect on the Oblivion War.

[TheCuriousFan]

We know that one of Nemisis's other names is Lord of Slowest Terror.  (Blood Rites, the chant that invoked He Who Walks Behind, who is said to be Lord of Slowest Terror's Right hand.)

Is Nemisis or Lachesis associated with slow terror?  If not, it might put a crimp in your theory.

Or not.  I just thought I'd point this out.

We sure that The Lord of Slowest Terror and Nemesis are the same entity?

As a side note, only 19 more likes to the Evil Hat page and we get another rpg teaser. Anyone who has a Facebook account and hasn't liked Evil Hat, I ask that you do so now.

[KevinSig]

We sure that the Old One HWWB follows and Nemesis are the same entity?

As a side note, only 19 more likes to the Evil Hat page and we get another rpg teaser. Anyone who has a Facebook account and hasn't liked Evil Hat, I ask that you do so now.

Can't respond without getting into Cold Days territory, but...

(click to show/hide)

Given the actions of He Who Walks Before, I think its a reasonable guess.  And there's Mac's indication that there are 3 Walkers.

Behind was the Right Hand.  Before likely was the Left.  And Between (my name choice) likely is the Mouth of Nemisis/Lord of Slowest Terror.

Then there's Harry's comment that the Outsiders all work together.


Maybe, the Outsiders are just flunkies, but I really doubt it.  So, until other info comes up, I assume Nemisis & Lord of Slowest Terror are one in the same.

[Shecky]

I was going along the lines of Nemesis being a deity, and Outsiders are more or less Old Ones and their minions, so a slight misstep in my wording.

What I'm saying is, I think the Outsiders were not always Outsiders, their removal from reality to beyond the gates is what made them Outsiders, and this removal is some process that may occur to different entities at different points in history.

Interesting idea. A bit our-universe-centric, though; it would seem to indicate that the Outside exists not in and of itself but purely in relation to our universe. I see no reason to assume that Outsiders don't come from the Outside.

(I think the use of the term "Outside" is part of the problem here. It does implicitly state that the Outside is defined by its relation to our universe. The problem, then, is one of lack of objective frame of reference; I suspect that "Outsiders" simply call their universe "the universe" and ours "the Outside", as the perspective of here-vs.-there [i.e., the inescapable omnipresence of subjectivity] defines the way we think about everything.)

[jb2point0]

Interesting idea. A bit our-universe-centric, though; it would seem to indicate that the Outside exists not in and of itself but purely in relation to our universe. I see no reason to assume that Outsiders don't come from the Outside.

(I think the use of the term "Outside" is part of the problem here. It does implicitly state that the Outside is defined by its relation to our universe. The problem, then, is one of lack of objective frame of reference; I suspect that "Outsiders" simply call their universe "the universe" and ours "the Outside", as the perspective of here-vs.-there [i.e., the inescapable omnipresence of subjectivity] defines the way we think about everything.)

Beyond the gates, to my understanding, means outside of reality. I don't think we can be sure yet if it's outside of OUR reality, or outside of ALL realities. We know that there are beings/immortals who exist and understand existence beyond a single universe, there may be foils to those beings on our side beyond the Outer Gates, meaning the Outer Gates aren't bound to a single universe, but the battle to keep them out exists in all universes.

I guess a question I'd have for Jim is, did multiple universes always exist in the DV, or only once mortals and free will came into being?

[Shecky]

Beyond the gates, to my understanding, means outside of reality. I don't think we can be sure yet if it's outside of OUR reality, or outside of ALL realities. We know that there are beings/immortals who exist and understand existence beyond a single universe, there may be foils to those beings on our side beyond the Outer Gates, meaning the Outer Gates aren't bound to a single universe, but the battle to keep them out exists in all universes.

I guess a question I'd have for Jim is, did multiple universes always exist in the DV, or only once mortals and free will came into being?

I see where you're heading, and it's not a bad idea at all. After all, Bob did mention that every imaginable universe pretty much has to exist, and that could have a bearing on the creative power of thought/will.

[wizard nelson]

Only problem is that the original Nemesis was clearly in the Greek pantheon and thus among the "old gods" to which the texts have made multiple references. Or are you postulating Outsiders spending enough time on Earth in the classical era to earn reputations as gods alongside the "regular" pantheon?

well its an idea of mine that beings of a certain caliber can continue to exist outside our reality. things that lose their grip on reality through the oblivion war exist as a shadow of themselves. simply that before an inside existed outsiders came set up shop and inadvertantly created our reality(this is what appears to have happened in Cthulhu Mythos)

 also this would explain DR if everything on it was destroyed utterly then chronos(or whichever titan is in DR) and all the prisoners ghosts suddenly pop up outside the gates ready to reinforce theassault. not sure you can kill time without seriously screwing with realty though

[rekshek]

I think you could make a pretty good argument that Mother Winter was behind the construction of Demonreach (if she's Nyx)  since she used to have a home in Tartarus.  It might, also, be the reason Harry needs to go to Hades, since Tartarus is Hades' basement.

I have a topic on here that MW was responsible for all the prisoners in Demonreach, more and more I like the idea that she is responsible for Merlin making it and her jailing them there for a reason.

[GrandPanjandrum]

Still, I wouldn't think Nemisis (the Greek god) would be considered forgotten enough, to negate existence.  So, maybe the Outer Gates don't have any effect on the Oblivion War.

For this, I think you have to look at the philosophical make-up of Nemesis.  It was her job to take entities down a peg.  She was/is retribution for hubris.  I think it's fair to say that the old pantheon as well as a significant number of other long ago Gods/ Goddesses would feel anger towards mortals (as an example) for the ease in which they turned away from them.  There is obvious hubris in that.    In truth, there has even been an active organization trying to assure that is the case ( The True Venatoris).  I don't find it any stretch of the imagination to assume that even though Nemesis might not be at risk of being forgotten in total personally...there aren't quite a few Gods, Goddesses, gods, and goddesses who are approaching the cusp of banishment.  Many more have already faced it.  So, I don't think Nemesis would have to be an "Outsider" at all to perform as is her nature...especially since she probably was well familiar with many of the Gods, Goddesses, gods and goddesses that no longer exist in reality because mortals no longer recognize them personally or historically.

It would also explain how this war with the "Outsiders" has been going on forever. 

Of course, if Nemesis was smart, she'd just update Wikipedia on a regular basis.   

[madness]

For this, I think you have to look at the philosophical make-up of Nemesis.  It was her job to take entities down a peg.  She was/is retribution for hubris.  I think it's fair to say that the old pantheon as well as a significant number of other long ago Gods/ Goddesses would feel anger towards mortals (as an example) for the ease in which they turned away from them.  There is obvious hubris in that.    In truth, there has even been an active organization trying to assure that is the case ( The True Venatoris).  I don't find it any stretch of the imagination to assume that even though Nemesis might not be at risk of being forgotten in total personally...there aren't quite a few Gods, Goddesses, gods, and goddesses who are approaching the cusp of banishment.  Many more have already faced it.  So, I don't think Nemesis would have to be an "Outsider" at all to perform as is her nature...especially since she probably was well familiar with many of the Gods, Goddesses, gods and goddesses that no longer exist in reality because mortals no longer recognize them personally or historically.

It would also explain how this war with the "Outsiders" has been going on forever. 

Of course, if Nemesis was smart, she'd just update Wikipedia on a regular basis.   

Different era and technology but this appears to be pretty much what Mab did via the Brothers Grimm.

[wizard nelson]

Only problem is that the original Nemesis was clearly in the Greek pantheon and thus among the "old gods"

was rereading things. are you saying you think the greek pantheon is outsider related? or that the 'old gods' were forced out of reality? the 'old ones' or 'great old ones' is an outsider lovecraft thing.

"Great Old Ones" a loose pantheon of ancient, powerful deities from space who once ruled the Earth and who have since fallen into a deathlike sleep.

of which Cthulhu is the most (in)famous. the order would be outergods, great old ones, the primordial gods(or titans if prefered) who make existence like Kronos and gaia, greek god pantheon, then newer deities and incarnations.(totally ignoring the so called 'elder gods') not sure were jim would put dragons precisely, or other castes/pantheons i'm not familiar with.

[Oirthir]

I think that what we have stumbled upon here is a coincidence. Nemesis could as easily be reference to the Lovecraft poem of the same name.

[wizard nelson]

I think that what we have stumbled upon here is a coincidence. Nemesis could as easily be reference to the Lovecraft poem of the same name.

eh? never read that one... can you give me a highlight? i would say i don't believe in jim making coincidences but after the 'disappearing amulet'... well you know.