Evocation Attack Clarification

[Hick Jr]

I'm not sure whether this merits a whole thread. Meh.

Anyway, does the "-2 to attack an entire zone" penalty get applied to the power or the accuracy? For example, Joe Wizard throws a Weapon:6, Fantastic (+6) attack at Bob Ghoul and his buddies. Because Joe is all about the efficiency, he makes it a zone attack. Does it drop to Weapon:4 or does it become a Great (+4) attack?


Edit-Oh, and a secondary concern for Evocation blocks- is the block versus just the attack roll, or the attack roll plus weapon rating?

[Taran]

It reduces the Power.

A Power 6 (weapon 6) spell becomes a weapon 4.  The discipline(control roll) is unaffected by the -2)  You still have to control 6 shifts of power

It goes the same with a block or maneuver.  So a zone wide block would go from a 6 shift block to a 4 shift block and you'd still need to control 6 shifts worth of Power

Edit following your edit:  For a block, if you put up a 6 shift block anything lower than 6 shifts of accuracy would miss.  If they hit a 6, then you'd take weapon damage.

So if you put up a Power 6, zone-wide block, it would act as a 4 shift block.
A Power 6 evocation vs that 4 shift block would be negated by any attack lower than 4.  Any attack 4 or higher would do the difference of success + 6 weapon damage

[Ghsdkgb]

Wait, really? What if I'm doing a zone-wide attack at only weapon 1? Like, I have a Wizard with very low Conviction but high Discipline, and roll a 6 on my targeting for a weapon 1 spell? Does it drop to a Weapon: -1? That doesn't make sense. I think it applies to the targeting roll.

[Hick Jr]

I think i understand for the Evocation, but...Gshdkgb...makes an excellent point. Maybe it just drops to Weapon:0?

Tell me if i'm following you here. After Joe Wizard charbroils Bob and his Bros, only Bob is standing up. Joe puts up a block at Fantastic on himself. If Bob rolls a 5 or lower on accuracy, he's hosed. If he rolls a 6, Joe takes 3 (4? I think my copy of YS is out of date) stress from the Weapon rating of Bob's claws. If Bob rolls, for example, an 8, Joe takes 5 stress? The margin of success+weapon rating?

[UmbraLux]

Taran stated it correctly.  You need to allocate your power to all facets (splits, zones, etc) of the spell and then roll to control the total power used. 

@G - You must allocate at least one shift of power to each effect / target.  If you can't, you don't have the power to cast the spell in that fashion. 

[Ghsdkgb]

Okay, so if I have a big, belt-fed machine gun that's at Weapon 2, and I want to make a Spray attack with it, let's say I roll a 6 on my attack.

That means my two targets dodge against my 6 and, if hit, take Weapon 1 stress (plus shifts, of course)? I've always played it that they dodge against a 3 each and those struck take Weapon 2 each.

EDIT: I just went through the rules in YS, and it looks like this IS correct, but it DOESN'T apply to evocations.

Guns and explosives get their targeting rolls split up, but Wizards have to make the split in the power of their spell, instead of the control of it. Weird.

[Haru]

Guns and explosives get their targeting rolls split up, but Wizards have to make the split in the power of their spell, instead of the control of it. Weird.

That's not quite correct, what you are describing are two different mechanics. One is a zone attack, the other one is a split attack.

For a zone attack, you need to dedicate 2 shifts of power of your spell to spreading out the spell to cover the whole zone. The targeting roll stays as is. Since firearms have a fixed weapon rating, you take the -2 penalty on the targeting roll instead, when making a zone attack with one.

Example:
- A 4 shift spell with a 5 shift targeting/control roll done as a zone attack means everyone inside the zone has to defend against a 5 shift attack with weapon:2
- Covering a zone with fire from an assault rifle (weapon:3), you roll a 6, which means everyone inside the zone has to defend against a 4 shift attack against a weapon:3

A split attack is something different. Here, you take your spell and divide it into multiple pieces. You also divide your targeting roll, and assign a number of shifts to each attack. Those new numbers are what each individual target has to defend against. For firearms, you are also going to split your attack roll into multiple parts, but each individual attack gets the full weapon rating of the gun.

Example:
- A 4 shift spell with a 5 shift targeting/control roll done as a split attack against 2 targets, which results in:
target 1: 2 shift attack, weapon:2
target 2: 3 shift attack, weapon:2
- Shooting at 2 targets with an assault rifle (weapon:3), you roll a 6 on your split attack, which leads to:
target 1: 3 shift attack, weapon: 3
target 2: 3 shift attack, weapon: 3

[Deadmanwalking]

What Haru said. Though you can't usually do a Zone attack without magic (or something like a grenade which automatically effects a zone at no loss of attack shifts).

The difference might lead you to say 'Why would I ever use a Spray Attack?' since Zone Attacks are better. The answer is that zone attacks hit everyone in the zone...potentially including yourself, making them tricky to set up. You can just do Spray Attacks.

[Taran]

What Haru said. Though you can't usually do a Zone attack without magic (or something like a grenade which automatically effects a zone at no loss of attack shifts).

The difference might lead you to say 'Why would I ever use a Spray Attack?' since Zone Attacks are better. The answer is that zone attacks hit everyone in the zone...potentially including yourself, making them tricky to set up. You can just do Spray Attacks.

Just thought I'd pipe in to agree with Deadmanwalking.  I've never seen a circumstance where a mundane weapon was used for a zone-wide attack.  Other than a grenade which can only do zone-wide attacks.

A Block, though, could affect everyone in a zone.  If you specify  "covering fire" to block anyone trying to attack you, or an ally.  Actually, since the block is specified to block a person, it potentially blocks attacks from other zones as well.  But, depending on the situation, you might be able to block a specific action to against everyone in a single zone.   But maybe I'm changing the topic a bit.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

There's two different ways to attack a lot of enemies at once:

You can make a Zone attack, which costs extra shifts of Power but hits everything in the Zone with your full Power and full Control. A Weapon 4 spell hitting everything in the Zone costs 6 shifts of Power. This is good when your Conviction is higher than your Discipline and you aren't in the Zone with your targets. This is the Dresden "everything was on fire and it wasn't my fault" approach.

You can also make a Spray attack, which does not cost extra shifts of Power, but requires you to split the results of your targeting roll among different targets. A Weapon 4 spell would only cost 4 shifts of power, but you would be dividing the results of your targeting roll-- your Discipline-- among the various targets. This is good when your Discipline is higher than your Conviction or when you are in the Zone with your targets. This is the Luccio "laser beams of death" approach.

Like other posters have pointed out, it's the difference between using a machine gun and using a grenade for attacking multiple targets at once.

[Mr. Death]

Point of clarification: Spray attacking with a spell requires that you split the targetting roll and the Power rating.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Let me help with examples. 

I have Control 6 and Power 6.  We will assume +0 rolls.

Zone Attack: Zone-wide Weapon:4 attack rolled at Fantastic.

Spray Attack (two targets): Two Good Weapon:3 attacks on different targets.  (Note, this could also be One Superb Weapon:3 attack and One Average Weapon:3 attack, or One Great Weapon:1 attack and One Fair Weapon:5 attack.  You can split them however you like, but have to split both.)

Spray Attack (three targets): Three Fair Weapon:2 attacks on different targets.  (Note, this can be split many different ways, like the two target example above.  You can add additional targets by splitting a greater number of ways). 

You must ALWAYS have at least Weapon 1.  You cannot reduce an attack effect below this.

[Hick Jr]

I find InFerrumVitas's (The Iron that Lives?) interpretation to be reasonable and easily understandable for the attack clarification.


For the blocks- So, if I'm following, you use Accuracy to beat a Block. Weapons rating doesn't enter into unless you actually defeat the block.

[Deadmanwalking]

I find InFerrumVitas's (The Iron that Lives?) interpretation to be reasonable and easily understandable for the attack clarification.

Yup, he's entirely correct.

For the blocks- So, if I'm following, you use Accuracy to beat a Block. Weapons rating doesn't enter into unless you actually defeat the block.

Correct.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I find InFerrumVitas's (The Iron that Lives?) interpretation to be reasonable and easily understandable for the attack clarification.

Veritas, not vitas.  "In iron, truth."  Because it is "ferrum" and not "ferro", the connotation is meant to be accusative.  More akin to "against iron".