"Blade Magic"

[Mr. Death]

That's pretty much one of the thoughts I had in mind (the other was the damage boost which would get broken). I'll send it to the player and see what he thinks.

This one is actually pretty cool looking. I may have to keep it in mind for a later character/NPC.
My only question: how would you handle the summoning of the Spirits? I know you normally have to beat whatever spirit you want to control into submission somehow, so would you do the same here?

It might be argued that because these spirits are already kind of on your side, you don't have to go through the rigmarole of beating them down and binding them, so much as summoning them and pointing them in the right direction.

[Sanctaphrax]

Summoning a spirit that wants to help you should be as hard as summoning one that doesn't and beating it down.

You pay for the effect you get, not for the way you narrate it.

[Crion]

Summoning a spirit that wants to help you should be as hard as summoning one that doesn't and beating it down.

You pay for the effect you get, not for the way you narrate it.

I've already posted about Summoning and how it seems a bit off in another thread, so we can sidestep that one.

Anyone else have a new suggestion?

[Crion]

Alternate Magical Paradigm might be appropriate. It's on the list.

And summoning heroic spirits with Transcendent Swordsmanship would use normal summoning rules.

By the by, do you have links for the other powers like Sponsored Magic and whatnot? Just curious. . .

[Mr. Death]

Summoning a spirit that wants to help you should be as hard as summoning one that doesn't and beating it down.

You pay for the effect you get, not for the way you narrate it.

By the same logic, should you need to win a social conflict to ask someone on your side who owes you a favor to help you out at the same difficulty it would be to convince someone who actively doesn't like you to help you?

Who you're calling for aid should be reflected in how much it costs--something that's already inclined to help you shouldn't need a 40-shift ritual to convince it to help you.

[Deadmanwalking]

By the same logic, should you need to win a social conflict to ask someone on your side who owes you a favor to help you out at the same difficulty it would be to convince someone who actively doesn't like you to help you?

Who you're calling for aid should be reflected in how much it costs--something that's already inclined to help you shouldn't need a 40-shift ritual to convince it to help you.

I agree. I also tend to think that even someone inclined to help is likely to charge a price for their aid in anything dangerous unless they're a personal friend (and possibly even then). Perhaps your aid in one of their battles at a later date...or some other dangerous or troublesome favor.

[Hick Jr]

I'd do it as a swordfight with the spirit you're summoning, probably represented as Weapons vs. Conviction.

[Sanctaphrax]

By the by, do you have links for the other powers like Sponsored Magic and whatnot? Just curious. . .

Sponsored Magic list
Item Of Power list
Stunt list

By the same logic, should you need to win a social conflict to ask someone on your side who owes you a favor to help you out at the same difficulty it would be to convince someone who actively doesn't like you to help you?

Who you're calling for aid should be reflected in how much it costs--something that's already inclined to help you shouldn't need a 40-shift ritual to convince it to help you.

If the spirit you're calling is a pre-existing character, that's true.

But generally it isn't. When a caster PC decides to summon a new NPC, whether her player decides to narrate the summoning as calling a friend or enslaving a monster should not matter to the spell's complexity.

If you ignore that, then nobody ever summons anything that isn't friendly (unless compelled). Because why would they pay extra shifts?

[Mr. Death]

Sponsored Magic list
Item Of Power list
Stunt list

If the spirit you're calling is a pre-existing character, that's true.

But generally it isn't. When a caster PC decides to summon a new NPC, whether her player decides to narrate the summoning as calling a friend or enslaving a monster should not matter to the spell's complexity.

If you ignore that, then nobody ever summons anything that isn't friendly (unless compelled). Because why would they pay extra shifts?

Honestly, if you're summoning something to help you out in a fight, it's just plain smarter to pick something friendly--just ask Victor Sells.

But even when something's friendly, deals have to be made--you could easily have Harry's offering to the loa spirit as part of the complexity, or Harry's giving his name to Chauncey.

Summoning something that actively doesn't want to help you and forcing it to should be more difficult than summoning something that has reason to help you. As for why? Maybe the unfriendly thing is more powerful. Maybe the unfriendly thing is the only thing that would help. Could be any number of reasons.

[Deadmanwalking]

If the spirit you're calling is a pre-existing character, that's true.

Agreed.

But generally it isn't. When a caster PC decides to summon a new NPC, whether her player decides to narrate the summoning as calling a friend or enslaving a monster should not matter to the spell's complexity.

If you ignore that, then nobody ever summons anything that isn't friendly (unless compelled). Because why would they pay extra shifts?

Ah, see, here's the difference: I would never let a player actually define, in detail, what they're summoning. That's the GM's job. It's always a pre-existing character...and it's up the GM what True Names they have access to and what kind of favors those beings are willing to do at what prices. The player could search out new ones...but that's a whole different kettle of fish. The player might be able to make Declarations about a critter or two, but no more than they'd get to make about a mercenary hired with Resources, certainly nothing that defined the creature completely.

[Sanctaphrax]

If unfriendly things is more powerful, then that's a fine reason for it to be harder to summon.

It's also fine if summoning friendly things is impossible.

The key thing is that summoning a demon instead of a loa shouldn't be stupid. You shouldn't have to be compelled into it.

And if you let people just say "I'm summoning something friendly" and make things easier for themselves, then summoning a demon instead of a loa is stupid.

[Deadmanwalking]

If unfriendly things is more powerful, then that's a fine reason for it to be harder to summon.

I dunno about more powerful...but most friendly things aren't combat oriented. 'Friendly' and 'combative' not going together as often as some other personality traits...

It's also fine if summoning friendly things is impossible.

By no means...but the thing you want today may only be available through an unfriendly critter...at least of the critters you know the names of.

The key thing is that summoning a demon instead of a loa shouldn't be stupid. You shouldn't have to be compelled into it.

And if you let people just say "I'm summoning something friendly" and make things easier for themselves, then summoning a demon instead of a loa is stupid.

This I agree with.

[Sanctaphrax]

I dunno about more powerful...but most friendly things aren't combat oriented. 'Friendly' and 'combative' not going together as often as some other personality traits...

Says who?

This I agree with.

Okay.

Therefore, going back to the original point, summoning with Transcendent Swordsmanship should not be easier because of the perceived friendliness of the heroic spirits. The cost of Transcendent Swordsmanship does not include any such bonus.

[Mr. Death]

The key thing is that summoning a demon instead of a loa shouldn't be stupid. You shouldn't have to be compelled into it.

You summon different entities for different things. Most likely, the player says, "I want to summon something for this purpose," and rolls Lore to figure out what it is. Maybe a high Lore roll gives him something he can bargain with and thus get his results at a lower complexity, while a low lore roll means he has to go for something that's going to be a pain in the ass to deal with.

And if you let people just say "I'm summoning something friendly" and make things easier for themselves, then summoning a demon instead of a loa is stupid.

If the player is naming specifically what he wants to summon, the GM still has the final say, and could easily say, "Okay, knowing the name of a Loa is an 8-shift Lore difficulty, but you have this book of demons over there and it's a Lore difficulty of 4 to summon something from there." Or maybe the player spends a fate point to declare it knows of something friendly that can help.

It's not like the Player has the final say in all this, remember.

I dunno about more powerful...but most friendly things aren't combat oriented. 'Friendly' and 'combative' not going together as often as some other personality traits...

I meant friendly to the summoner, not friendly in general.

At the same time, though, friendly can sure as hell be combat oriented. Michael Carpenter, Sanya and Shiro are plenty friendly.

[Deadmanwalking]

I meant friendly to the summoner, not friendly in general.

Right...but if they aren't friendly in general, the only reason they'd be likely to be friendly with the Summoner is some prior relationship of some sort, which should likely be roleplayed out.

At the same time, though, friendly can sure as hell be combat oriented. Michael Carpenter, Sanya and Shiro are plenty friendly.

Sure...but Father Forthill is more typical of people on that side of things. I didn't say they didn't exist, just that they were less common.