Author Topic: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience  (Read 16820 times)

Offline Mrmdubois

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2013, 08:25:01 PM »
Reminds me of Dead Beat.  Cassius was scrawny and aging rapidly but could outmuscle Harry when wrestling just because he'd been around longer to learn and practice good technique. 

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2013, 04:35:35 AM »
Determination of the sort you guys are talking about is what Conviction or Discipline Maneuvers and Aspect use is for...not the Might skill.

Anyway, this has gotten a little off track: All arguments over who should have this power aside...does it look like a workable power as currently costed and statted? Maybe with an option to have a few skills at Mediocre in exchange for a few skill points back?

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2013, 04:57:23 AM »
Determination can also be a general quality that helps one succeed at all of one's endeavours without you taking any special time to summon it up. So you can justify Fair Might on the Merlin or Ancient Mai, even if you don't want to fudge things with Compels.

As I said before, the Powers look workable but they're probably too good at higher power levels. Which is why I was suggesting handing them out free, to remove the balance issue.

I'm not sure about the idea of letting people exclude skills from this Power. It seems exploitable.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2013, 06:01:54 AM »
Determination can also be a general quality that helps one succeed at all of one's endeavours without you taking any special time to summon it up. So you can justify Fair Might on the Merlin or Ancient Mai, even if you don't want to fudge things with Compels.

There's an element of truth there...but, IMO, not enough of one to make that the default. I dislike it for the same reason I dislike D&D 4E's general skill bumps per level...it results in a number of things that simply don't fit aesthetically or thematically.

As I said before, the Powers look workable but they're probably too good at higher power levels. Which is why I was suggesting handing them out free, to remove the balance issue.

I dunno, much as I trumpeted the advantages of this over True Shapeshifting (and there definitely are some)...it seems like that's a much more abusable/powerful ability in almost every way...

I'm not sure about the idea of letting people exclude skills from this Power. It seems exploitable.

That's definitely my worry on that, yeah.

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2013, 07:08:37 PM »
Why not create skill groups?  You buy the power and get the baseline raised for that specific skill group.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2013, 09:52:37 PM »
Hmmm...perhaps. But that runs into skill pyramid issues. As listed, this power doesn't invalidate the Pyramid model, just moves it up a bit...what you suggest seems destined to violate the pyramid model entirely, something I'm not eager to do.

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2013, 10:21:59 PM »
I feel like limiting certain skills would do the same though.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2013, 10:44:08 PM »
Not if you limited it to just a couple...well, it technically does, but in a way that's a lot easier to work around.

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2013, 11:13:37 PM »
I feel like that way is worse in a way actually. For generalization purposes lets say there are 20 skills, if you separate them into 4 groups of 5 kinda like the way Veritas suggested then you have a person who would only break the tree if they took 3/4 groups otherwise they would have 5 over 15, 10 over 10 or 20 over 0 (which is just an upgrade). If you have it so that they are taking all 20 except for like 2 or 3, they are creating a situation that isnt any better than 15 over 5.

Just sayin.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2013, 12:54:02 AM »
There's an element of truth there...but, IMO, not enough of one to make that the default. I dislike it for the same reason I dislike D&D 4E's general skill bumps per level...it results in a number of things that simply don't fit aesthetically or thematically.

I'm not advocating this because I think it's thematic. I'm advocating it because optimization-wise, Experience is basically mandatory for the Merlin. And I don't want to give some non-skilled player the chance to handicap their character by not knowing that.

Fortunately, I can justify this thematically. The difference between Mediocre and Fair is small enough to be subsumed into a character's general awesomeness.

I dunno, much as I trumpeted the advantages of this over True Shapeshifting (and there definitely are some)...it seems like that's a much more abusable/powerful ability in almost every way...

Nah, there are some definite advantages to Experience. I'm not saying Experience is clearly better, but look at what it can do for the Merlin.

Here are your skills and specializations for the Merlin:

Epic: Discipline,
Fantastic: Conviction, Lore
Superb: Contacts, Presence,
Great: Deceit, Intimidation, Resources
Good: Alertness, Empathy, Rapport, Scholarship,
Fair: Craftsmanship, Burglary, Investigation, Stealth,
Average: Athletics, Endurance, Weapons, Survival

Evocation: Elements (Air, Fire, Earth, Spirit);
Power (Air +6, Earth +1, Spirit +4, Fire+2)
Control (Air+5, Earth +1, Spirit +3, Fire+1)
Thaumaturgy:
Control (Summoning and Binding +1, Conjuration +1,  Divination +1, Veils +2, Wards +3, Transformation and Disruption +1, Transportation and Worldwalking +2);
Complexity (Summoning and Binding +3, Conjuration +3, Divination+4, Veils +5, Wards +6, Transformation and Disruption +2, Transportation and Worldwalking +4);

And here are the skills and specializations the Merlin could have if he swapped 4 Refinements for Supernatural Experience:

Quote
Epic: Discipline, Conviction, Lore
Fantastic: Contacts, Presence, Deceit
Superb: Intimidation, Resources, Scholarship
Great: Alertness, Empathy, Rapport
Good: Endurance, Craftsmanship, Investigation
Fair: The rest

Evocation: Elements (Air, Fire, Earth, Spirit);
Power (Air +5, Spirit +3, Fire+2)
Control (Air+6, Earth +1, Spirit +4, Fire+1)
Thaumaturgy:
Control (Summoning and Binding +1, Conjuration +1,  Divination +1, Veils +2, Wards +3, Transformation and Disruption +1, Transportation and Worldwalking +2);
Complexity (Summoning and Binding +2, Conjuration +2, Divination+3, Veils +4, Wards +5, Transformation and Disruption +1, Transportation and Worldwalking +3);

By my count, the two Merlins have the exact same Refresh cost. But the second Merlin is strictly superior. There is nothing that he is worse at, and a lot that he is better at.

And so, not taking Experience is a sucker's choice.

PS: There are 25 skills. In theory one could make more, but few people seem inclined to bother.
PPS: Would Experience raise one's competency at things that no canon skill covers, but which a theoretical new skill might? (I'm thinking of playing chess, here.)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 12:55:53 AM by Sanctaphrax »

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2013, 02:06:32 AM »
I'm not advocating this because I think it's thematic. I'm advocating it because optimization-wise, Experience is basically mandatory for the Merlin. And I don't want to give some non-skilled player the chance to handicap their character by not knowing that.

Fortunately, I can justify this thematically. The difference between Mediocre and Fair is small enough to be subsumed into a character's general awesomeness.

NPCs aren't necessarily optimized. That's okay, as they also aren't built with strict point totals. Trying to justify what powers an NPC has in optimization terms is, IMO, an actively bad idea as it makes for poor choices in terms of what the NPC can and should be able to do.

Nah, there are some definite advantages to Experience. I'm not saying Experience is clearly better, but look at what it can do for the Merlin.

There are, it's true. But True Shapeshifting would do all that and more (okay, it only allows two skills at Epic...but it allows him to also use Epic Athletics or Might whenever he likes, too). It'd certainly be better than his current stuff mechanically. I'll go into why I didn't give it to him below.

Here are your skills and specializations for the Merlin:

And here are the skills and specializations the Merlin could have if he swapped 4 Refinements for Supernatural Experience:

By my count, the two Merlins have the exact same Refresh cost. But the second Merlin is strictly superior. There is nothing that he is worse at, and a lot that he is better at.

I can make a vastly more optimized Merlin in my sleep without changing a single Refresh. His skills are, from an optimization perspective poorly organized. Of course rearranging them makes him more powerful. That says nothing about the power per se and everything abou the fact that I didn't build the Merlin to be mechanically optimal, I built him to accurately reflect the combination of advantages and disadvantages he demonstrates over the course of the books. This is how I build all my NPCs, and it's how others should as well. Specific Refresh and skill point limits are actually a bad thing for NPC creation as they make you care about those limits more than accurate reflections of the concept (or how well those stats reflect the fictional character in question,for folks like the Merlin) you wish to create.

And so, not taking Experience is a sucker's choice.

I strongly disagree actually. It's good, but the fact that you rearranged his skills has a lot more to do with him getting more powerful there than the use of an Experience power. I can make a vastly more powerful version by just making him Epic in Conviction and Lore, Fantastic in Discipline (doable with the 65 skill points he has base sans the Experience rather easily) and dropping a very few low level skills (Stealth and Weapons, for example), then using those 4 Refinements to up his Focus/Enchanted Items.

PS: There are 25 skills. In theory one could make more, but few people seem inclined to bother.

Indeed.

PPS: Would Experience raise one's competency at things that no canon skill covers, but which a theoretical new skill might? (I'm thinking of playing chess, here.)

I'd peg chess under Scholarship, actually. And theoretically, yes, I think, but I wouldn't use such skills.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2013, 02:30:44 AM »
NPCs aren't necessarily optimized. That's okay, as they also aren't built with strict point totals. Trying to justify what powers an NPC has in optimization terms is, IMO, an actively bad idea as it makes for poor choices in terms of what the NPC can and should be able to do.

Eh, I see where you're coming from.

However, the same issue applies to essentially all really powerful characters.

There are, it's true. But True Shapeshifting would do all that and more (okay, it only allows two skills at Epic...but it allows him to also use Epic Athletics or Might whenever he likes, too). It'd certainly be better than his current stuff mechanically. I'll go into why I didn't give it to him below.

Nope!

Capping all three casting skills is massive. Epic Lore is strictly superior to Fantastic Lore with 3 Refinements spent getting +1 complexity to six fields of magic. And the Merlin has Complexity bonuses in seven fields of magic.

I can make a vastly more optimized Merlin in my sleep without changing a single Refresh. His skills are, from an optimization perspective poorly organized. Of course rearranging them makes him more powerful.

It's okay to be un-optimized. It's not okay for there to be absolute power disparities.

By re-arranging the Merlin's skills, you could make him stronger. But I'd be able to say "he's worse at Stealth" or some such thing.

With the changes I made to the Merlin, you cannot say anything like that.

This is bad.

I strongly disagree actually. It's good, but the fact that you rearranged his skills has a lot more to do with him getting more powerful there than the use of an Experience power. I can make a vastly more powerful version by just making him Epic in Conviction and Lore, Fantastic in Discipline (doable with the 65 skill points he has base sans the Experience rather easily) and dropping a very few low level skills (Stealth and Weapons, for example), then using those 4 Refinements to up his Focus/Enchanted Items.

I didn't really re-arrange his skills. I just raised them. With the exception of Endurance, no skill on my Merlin is higher than a skill it was not higher than on your Merlin.

Oh, and your proposed Merlin would still be strictly inferior to a Merlin with Experience. Grab Supernatural Experience, make Discipline Epic, drop 4 points of control bonuses. Nothing lost, plenty gained.

This isn't really an argument. This is math.

Strict mathematical imbalances are not acceptable for PCs. And you've been using the Merlin as a PC-stand-in here, so I'm doing the same.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2013, 08:13:45 AM »
Eh, I see where you're coming from.

However, the same issue applies to essentially all really powerful characters.

PCs are built differently. Hell, in many ways this is explicitly a PC only power...NPCs don't have skill caps so you don't need to throw it on them, just say all their skills are at X rating. Build two PCs that do the same thing...say, combat, or magic, or scholarly inquiry, one with the power and one without and compare them and you get good info...worrying about giving the power to a particular NPC is well-nigh meaningless.

Nope!

Capping all three casting skills is massive. Epic Lore is strictly superior to Fantastic Lore with 3 Refinements spent getting +1 complexity to six fields of magic. And the Merlin has Complexity bonuses in seven fields of magic.

True...but you can do that without buying the Power in question. That's not a power-level disparity between having the Power and not, it's a power-level disparity between being optimized and not, and those are inevitable.

It's okay to be un-optimized. It's not okay for there to be absolute power disparities.

As stated, there isn't. Make a reasonable character who's not over specialized to the point of insanity in ritual magic and compare versions with and without this ability and we can talk.

By re-arranging the Merlin's skills, you could make him stronger. But I'd be able to say "he's worse at Stealth" or some such thing.

With the changes I made to the Merlin, you cannot say anything like that.

This is bad.

I can say those points could instead have been spent making him a 14 to 15 shift Evocation specialist instead, which is vastly more useful than being Fair in Stealth and Weapons.

The Merlin's an awful example for this because he was built to explicitly have maxed out specialty pyramids in every aspect of Magic without also having a maxed out Lore skill. I know, I built him. Doing this makes him more effective, sure, but since he's no longer properly representative of being the Merlin there's absolutely no point to it.

I can improve him in a dozen ways that are vastly better than this for the same Refresh, none of which will cost him anything...I don't because there's no point.

I didn't really re-arrange his skills. I just raised them. With the exception of Endurance, no skill on my Merlin is higher than a skill it was not higher than on your Merlin.

Okay...really not the point, though.

Oh, and your proposed Merlin would still be strictly inferior to a Merlin with Experience. Grab Supernatural Experience, make Discipline Epic, drop 4 points of control bonuses. Nothing lost, plenty gained.

This isn't really an argument. This is math.

8 points. You need 8 points of Control bonuses to make that worthwhile (you get 2 per Refinement). Barring Evocation (which isn't so easily dropped for various reasons), I'm not sure the Merlin has 8 points of control bonuses to drop and maintain his specialty pyramids. And even if he does, this is a ridiculous corner case that effectively applies only to Senior Council members, since nobody else has enough Control bonuses to do that.

Try another example if you really want to prove your point. One not built with a ridiculous amount of redundancy and what amount to near-useless refinements taken because they're appropriate, not because they're useful. Try this on Luccio, for example, and you instead get a much less effective character, not more (her skills get better, but her important skills are already maxed, and she needs that 4 Refinement). Or try it on a non-Wizard (Wizards get a lot more use out of maxing their top three skills than other people).

Strict mathematical imbalances are not acceptable for PCs. And you've been using the Merlin as a PC-stand-in here, so I'm doing the same.

No...I really haven't. I've been using him as a really powerful NPC who I think the power in question is thematically inappropriate for. That's...kind of the opposite of using him as a PC example, actually.

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2013, 07:30:56 PM »
PCs are built differently. Hell, in many ways this is explicitly a PC only power...NPCs don't have skill caps so you don't need to throw it on them, just say all their skills are at X rating. Build two PCs that do the same thing...say, combat, or magic, or scholarly inquiry, one with the power and one without and compare them and you get good info...worrying about giving the power to a particular NPC is well-nigh meaningless.

Did I miss something, I thought that NPC`s still had to follow the skill pyramid... which would make this a great power for NPC characters since like you said they don't have a cap, so if you are making a big bad who has been around forever and has mythic experience then his lowest skill is +3 instead of +0

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2013, 09:59:22 PM »
True...but you can do that without buying the Power in question.

No. You cannot.

Try it, it's impossible. No canonical power level allows you to cap three skills. Nor does any power level I've written. Nor does the one you're using for the Merlin. Nor does any homebrew one I've seen played.

Try this on Luccio, for example, and you instead get a much less effective character, not more (her skills get better, but her important skills are already maxed, and she needs that 4 Refinement).

Luccio has 60 skill points. So it's pretty safe to assume her cap is Fantastic. No PC is gonna make it to 60 skill points without raising the cap to Fantastic.

Which means I can give her this:

Quote
Fantastic: Conviction, Discipline, Lore, Weapons
Superb: Athletics, Endurance, Fists, Presence,
Great: Alertness, Contacts, Intimidation, Rapport
Good: Deceit, Empathy, Investigation, Scholarship,
Fair: The rest

Evocation: Elements (Air, Fire, Spirit);
Power (Spirit +1, Fire+3)
Control (Spirit +2, Fire+4)
Thaumaturgy:
Crafting (Strength+1, Frequency+1)

Improving everything and reducing nothing. She seems to be worse at Crafting frequency, but actually she can pay for that with her +1 Crafting strength since strength is always better than frequency.

Or try it on a non-Wizard (Wizards get a lot more use out of maxing their top three skills than other people).

Easy enough. The power increase won't be as absolute, but it'll be there. Who do you want me to try it on?

No...I really haven't. I've been using him as a really powerful NPC who I think the power in question is thematically inappropriate for. That's...kind of the opposite of using him as a PC example, actually.

I said it'd be a good idea to give these Powers free to characters above Submerged. You responded by saying that'd throw off characters like Lily and the Merlin. That's clearly using him as a PC example, because if he's not a PC he's not even remotely relevant to the conversation.

I mean, if the Merlin doesn't represent a PC then why should the PC-making rules be designed to accommodate him?