Brainstorming a Power: The Benefits of Experience

[Deadmanwalking]

Did I miss something, I thought that NPC`s still had to follow the skill pyramid... which would make this a great power for NPC characters since like you said they don't have a cap, so if you are making a big bad who has been around forever and has mythic experience then his lowest skill is +3 instead of +0

The thing is, several NPCs already do this. So...there's clearly no need for a power to do it. It's needed for PCs if you want them to be able to do it since, well, it is.

No. You cannot.

Try it, it's impossible. No canonical power level allows you to cap three skills. Nor does any power level I've written. Nor does the one you're using for the Merlin. Nor does any homebrew one I've seen played.

As a starting character? Probably not quite, but they allow two out of three. And when starting at Great or Fantastic (we'll go with Fantastic for this example) starting at only Superb in Conviction is a 'disadvantage' that can be overcome a lot more cheaply than -4 Refresh. I can do it with -1 Refresh devoted to Focus Items, actually.

Luccio has 60 skill points. So it's pretty safe to assume her cap is Fantastic. No PC is gonna make it to 60 skill points without raising the cap to Fantastic.

Which means I can give her this:

Improving everything and reducing nothing. She seems to be worse at Crafting frequency, but actually she can pay for that with her +1 Crafting strength since strength is always better than frequency.

This is an entirely unjustified assumption, and obviously changes the example in question to favor your point. Her cap is Superb. With that assumption in place, try again and your result will be very different.

I mean, again, like with the Merlin, I can rearrange her skills just assuming the higher Cap and make something much more powerful than your example...indeed, here's that:

Name: Anastasia Luccio

Skills:

Fantastic: Discipline, Lore,
Superb: Conviction, Weapons
Great: Athletics, Fists, Presence,
Good: Alertness, Contacts, Endurance, Intimidation,
Fair: Rapport, Deceit, Empathy, Investigation,
Average: Burglary, Resources, Scholarship, Stealth, Survival, 1 more

Powers:

Evocation: Elements (Air, Fire, Spirit);
Power (Air+1, Spirit +3, Fire+5)
Control (Spirit +2, Fire+4)
Thaumaturgy:
Complexity (Wards +1); Crafting (Strength+1, Frequency +1)

Focus Items:
Sword (+2 Defensive Power and +2 Defensive Control for Fire)
Staff (+2 Offensive Power and +2 Offensive Control for Fire)

There's she's a full shift better at Evocation than your 'superior' build and casually equal on Thaumaturgy. The power had little to do with the 'no strings' nature of the improvement...

Still, looking at that...I'm beginning to think you may be partially right. On Wizards specifically, anyway. The cost of raising all their skill-based stuff really does approach that of the power, making the power a cheaper better means of such improvement since it also improves so much else...

Perhaps we should experiment with a -3/-6/-9 version...but we definitely need a non-Wizard example or two first, to see if the problem's exclusive to them. If it is...maybe a middle ground at -3/-5/-7 or some such? Eh, lets look at some non-Wizards and see.

Easy enough. The power increase won't be as absolute, but it'll be there. Who do you want me to try it on?

Try Thomas. He's actually made more like a PC and, post-Cold Days, has a Fantastic skill cap. Do it by removing existing powers, not using his free Refresh, since characters with less Refresh are always gonna look more powerful than those without it. Don't remove Ritual since it borders on useless mechanically. Hell, thinking about it, it'd be best to assume he's got only Refresh 23 or so, and no Ritual or free Refresh available to ditch.

I said it'd be a good idea to give these Powers free to characters above Submerged. You responded by saying that'd throw off characters like Lily and the Merlin. That's clearly using him as a PC example, because if he's not a PC he's not even remotely relevant to the conversation.

I mean, if the Merlin doesn't represent a PC then why should the PC-making rules be designed to accommodate him?

I meant conceptually similar characters. Ie: Young and possibly ignorant but powerful or old but physically weak and specialized. Either's a valid example conceptually, and I can't really use actual PC examples since we don't actually have any for this...

[Deadmanwalking]

Y'know, I'll just do Thomas myself, using the guidelines I suggest above:

Skills:

Fantastic: Athletics, Deceit, Guns, Weapons,
Superb:  Discipline, Investigation, Presence, Resources
Great: Alertness, Conviction, Endurance, Fists,
Good: Driving, Intimidation, Lore, Rapport,
Fair: Everything else

Stunts:

Takes One to Know One (Deceit) (-1)
Target Rich Environment (As the Guns Stunt) (Weapons) (-1)
Wall of Death (Weapons) (-1)

Powers:

Emotional Vampire [–1]
Human Guise [+0]
Incite Emotion (Lust; At Range, Lasting Emotion) [–3]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Supernatural Experience [-4]

Feeding Dependency [+1] affecting the following powers:
Supernatural Strength [–2]
Inhuman Speed [–2]
Supernatural Recovery [–4]
The Catch [+0] is True Love.

Total: -22 Refresh

Okay, yeah, that's strictly superior. Enough to be a problem.

The -3/-6/-9 version looks like it's likely more balanced, and wouldn't screw up things to the same extent, though, since on both Luccio and Thomas (much more reasonable examples than the Merlin) the differences are only very marginally superior, and I think the extra -2 would send them over into having serious tradeoffs where they suffer real losses for their gains.

That'd pretty much limit the Mythic level to above-Submerged games, but that seems fairly appropriate...

[Sanctaphrax]

I love it when people make my points for me. Saves me a lot of work.

I dunno if it's a good idea to increase the cost though. Experience didn't feel overpowered when I was using it on The Alchemist and Elos the Baker.

The issue is that the more skill points you have, the more powerful the Power gets. So if it's costed fairly for people with 20-30 skill points, it's busted for people with 60.

I can't think of a good solution for this, honestly, other than giving it out free at higher levels. Having it not cost skill points or affect pyramids would fix this particular issue, but it'd create perverse incentives in skill-pyramid design.

[Deadmanwalking]

Maybe escalate the skill point costs based on total number of skill points? Have each cost, oh, a quarter of the available skill points (rounding up) instead of a flat 10? It's less elegant (and powers it up at low levels)...but makes it a great deal pricier in skills at higher levels.

[Sanctaphrax]

Interesting idea. Lemme give it a try with some skill blocks.

All of these stat blocks will be designed for an organization-leading behind-the-scenes type. Because I want them all to be similar for purposes of comparison.

Feet In The Water w/Inhuman:

Great: Resources, Contacts
Good: Presence, Deceit, Rapport
Fair: Lore, Empathy, Scholarship
Average: The rest

Feet In The Water w/Supernatural:

Great: Resources, Contacts, Deceit
Good: Presence, Rapport, Empathy, Scholarship
Fair: The rest

Submerged w/Inhuman:

Superb: Resources, Contacts
Great: Deceit, Presence, Rapport
Good: Empathy, Scholarship, Lore
Fair: Discipline, Investigation, Intimidation
Average: The rest

Submerged w/Supernatural:

Superb: Resources, Contacts
Great: Deceit, Presence, Rapport
Good: Empathy, Scholarship, Lore, Conviction, Discipline
Fair: The rest

Submerged w/Mythic:

Superb: Resources, Contacts, Deceit
Great: Scholarship, Presence, Rapport
Good: The rest

60 skill points, cap Fantastic w/Inhuman:

Fantastic: Resources, Contacts, Deceit
Superb: Presence, Rapport, Scholarship
Great: Empathy, Lore, Discipline
Good: Conviction, Investigation, Intimidation
Fair: Burglary, Stealth, Performance
Average: The rest

60 skill points, cap Fantastic w/Supernatural:

Fantastic: Resources, Contacts, Deceit
Superb: Presence, Rapport, Scholarship
Great: Empathy, Lore, Discipline
Good: Conviction, Investigation, Intimidation
Fair: The rest

60 skill points, cap Fantastic w/Mythic:

Fantastic: Resources, Contacts
Superb: Presence, Rapport, Deceit
Great: Empathy, Lore, Scholarship
Good: The rest

What do you think?

[Deadmanwalking]

Doesn't seem to quite solve the problem, and is overpowered at low levels. Hmmm. Let me think on this...

[Lavecki121]

What about 1/4 of skillpoints or 10, whichever is greater?

[Sanctaphrax]

I actually think those pyramids look pretty okay for the most part.

The Feet In The Water ones are too good, though.

[Lavecki121]

Really? Oh, yea, well when you look at how much of their total refresh they have to spend.

[Deadmanwalking]

Hmmm. The other issue with that idea is what happens to people who get more skill points in play...that's an advancement nightmare.

Maybe have it cost Skill Points equal to total Refresh per level? No...still an advancement problem. Raising costs only seems necessary at higher levels...maybe do that? Have the Refresh cost escalate at certain skill levels?

Maybe have it cost -1 per level at skill cap Good or less, -2 per level at Great to Superb and -3 per level at Fantastic to Epic? Ooh, I actually like that...makes it more expensive for those who get the most use out of it in a very direct way that doesn't screw up Advancement (you just might need to invest some Refresh into it immediately when your skill cap rises).

[Sanctaphrax]

Eh...it bugs me that having a higher skill cap could be a disadvantage.

You're right about the advancement nightmare though.

Maybe you could rephrase "pay 1/4 of your skill points" as "you lose every 4th skillpoint". That way there's a clear way to handle advancement and you avoid decimals.

The 1/4 method isn't perfect by any means, but I think it has a lot of promise.

[Deadmanwalking]

Hmmm. Perhaps a flat 10 skill points per level, then costing every fourth skill point past 40?

I'm still worried the 1/4 thing's too powerful at low levels.

[Lavecki121]

Yea but at feet in the water level they only have 6 refresh to spend. This power at inhuman costs them half of that and supernatural takes all of it.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yea but at feet in the water level they only have 6 refresh to spend. This power at inhuman costs them half of that and supernatural takes all of it.

Nah, it's still only -2/-4 at the moment.

[Lavecki121]

Oh I thought you guys changed it to a 3/6/9 model