Weapon-value of evocation-projected catch?

[jait]

Currently discussing something with a player.

Character is telekinetically "shooting" a handful of iron nails at a Sidhe.  She has performed a 4-shift air evocation for a total effort of 6-shifts, successfully sending the nails flying...  Sadly, said Sidhe rolled poorly for defense. 

I read it like this:
+6 Evocation effort (4-shift effect)
-2 Sidhe defense of +2 (it did bypass the catch, after all)
==============
+4 Effort-Damage
+4 Weapon Value (4-shift declared as effect-power)
==============
+8 shifts Damage

Her player is suggesting that there should be an additional shift because it's Iron, and would do damage anyway.

I'm very tired and not thinking real straight right now.  Am I thinking this through right?

[UmbraLux]

I'd call it a Declaration (and need a roll or fate point) for a +2 if invoked.

[Deadmanwalking]

Throwing nails at someone is no different than any other Evocation in terms of damage, them being iron means they'll ignore it's toughness abilities, but doesn't grant any additional damage per se. Now, if she spends an action on a Declaration or assessment regarding their iron as an anti-Faerie device, that'd add, but barring that you're completely correct, the Sidhe takes a 'mere' 8 stress hit that ignores it's standard Toughness abilities.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I'd call it a Declaration (and need a roll or fate point) for a +2 if invoked.

I'd call it a Declaration, invoked to bypass catch.

[UmbraLux]

I'd call it a Declaration, invoked to bypass catch.

I'd call that a compel. 

Or invoke for effect if you prefer.  Isn't DFRPG invented terminology 'fun'? 

[toturi]

I see 2 issues here.

1) Iron as Catch - that has been covered quite extensively by other posters

2) Nails as weapons themselves - presumably the nails (iron or not) would deal damage, hence I'd probably allow the player to tag that aspect of the nails to deal extra damage.

[Mr. Death]

As said, if it's a spell, then the spell's Weapon rating is the weapon rating--I'd just allow the iron to bypass the Fae's Toughness powers. If the Fae doesn't have toughness powers (but instead, say, just recovery--or neither), then I'd go the declaration and tag route to boost the damage.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I'd call that a compel. 

Or invoke for effect if you prefer.  Isn't DFRPG invented terminology 'fun'?

On the player's part, it's a declaration, probably using alertness (There are nails here!).  Then the player invokes that (invokes for effect).  Players can't compel.

I'd just have the weapon rating be the rating of the spell.  That's going to be higher than the 1 I'd have a handful of nails be anyway.  Invoking the aspect would allow it to satisfy the catch or boost power (but not satisfy the catch and boost power). 

[Taran]

On the player's part, it's a declaration, probably using alertness (There are nails here!).  Then the player invokes that (invokes for effect).  Players can't compel.

I'd just have the weapon rating be the rating of the spell.  That's going to be higher than the 1 I'd have a handful of nails be anyway.  Invoking the aspect would allow it to satisfy the catch or boost power (but not satisfy the catch and boost power).

This.

The player could tag it for a +2 to boost damage instead of the invoke, but then the toughness/recovery would still apply.  "darned aluminum nails!"

[Mr. Death]

On the player's part, it's a declaration, probably using alertness (There are nails here!).  Then the player invokes that (invokes for effect).  Players can't compel.

I'd just have the weapon rating be the rating of the spell.  That's going to be higher than the 1 I'd have a handful of nails be anyway.  Invoking the aspect would allow it to satisfy the catch or boost power (but not satisfy the catch and boost power).

I disagree--first, players can initiate a compel, it's right in the book.

And I don't see any reason why a Fae creature should still get its Toughness bonuses if it's been successfully declared that they're being attacked by Iron. That rather misses the point of the Catch. A Catch doesn't need to be an invoke for effect at all.

[Taran]

Are you saying that by the virtue of the fact that he successfully declared they were iron, they'd automatically satisfy the catch?  And if so, they'd get to use their free tag for a +2?

I'm asking because I don't know if I'm misunderstanding.

If it just automatically bypasses the catch, Would you raise the difficulty of the declaration?

For instance, if they're fighting a fae in a construction zone, it'd be a fairly easy declaration that there are nails lying around to use as projectiles.  But if they want to find nails that specifically act as a Catch, would you increase the difficulty?

[Mr. Death]

Are you saying that by the virtue of the fact that he successfully declared they were iron, they'd automatically satisfy the catch?  And if so, they'd get to use their free tag for a +2?

I'm asking because I don't know if I'm misunderstanding.

Yes. Attacking with iron means you bypass the catch for iron--you wouldn't need to invoke for effect if you were using a steel sword, after all.

If it just automatically bypasses the catch, Would you raise the difficulty of the declaration?

Not based on that. I'd only raise the difficulty if it was more unlikely that there'd be a bunch of iron nails there.

For instance, if they're fighting a fae in a construction zone, it'd be a fairly easy declaration that there are nails lying around to use as projectiles.  But if they want to find nails that specifically act as a Catch, would you increase the difficulty?

Aren't iron or steel nails the norm anyway? That being the case, I wouldn't increase the difficulty for something you'd never expect not to find.

Personally, call it the Fae's fault for picking a fight around construction equipment.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm with Mr. Death on this one.

The Fae would certainly get a Compel (and FP) from this, but that requires no action on the player's part and doesn't involve tags or Aspects at all, any more than a Wizard using the element of Fire needs to waste actions having that count as the Catch for something especially flammable.

[Taran]

I'm with Mr. Death on this one.

The Fae would certainly get a Compel (and FP) from this, but that requires no action on the player's part and doesn't involve tags or Aspects at all, any more than a Wizard using the element of Fire needs to waste actions having that count as the Catch for something especially flammable.

O.k.  This all makes sense to me. My question now is, if there's no aspect invoked, why does the Fae get a FP.  Is the FP from a compel to have them fight in a bad locale?

Aren't iron or steel nails the norm anyway? That being the case, I wouldn't increase the difficulty for something you'd never expect not to find.

Personally, call it the Fae's fault for picking a fight around construction equipment.

Yes, nails and iron...that makes sense.  It was a bad example, but it was the one OP presented.

[Mr. Death]

O.k.  This all makes sense to me. My question now is, if there's no aspect invoked, why does the Fae get a FP.  Is the FP from a compel to have them fight in a bad locale?

There doesn't need to be an invoke for there to be a compel. Compels against PCs aren't necessarily invokes, after all.