A Question about Catches and Toughness

[Locnil]

I always assumed the True Love catch was mostly for compels, because by the way it works in the fluff, it's nigh-impossible to weaponize True Love.

[Deadmanwalking]

I thought the strength of the catch was based on how difficult the weakness was to discover once you knew what enemy you were facing.

This is technically true, but doesn't appear to be how the Catches we have as an example were actually structured. Clearly, it's an issue you should discuss with your GM.

If you don't know what you're researching the only way to discover whether you had the right catch would be trial and error.
If it wasn't the case wouldn't any Sidhe under a disguising glamour have a higher catch due to the added difficulty of discerning it's nature?

Well, if you see it do stuff, figuring out it's one of the sidhe (or whatever) is doable with a bit of research. Probably at about the +1 level...which is what such creatures seem to have costed on them.

I always assumed the True Love catch was mostly for compels, because by the way it works in the fluff, it's nigh-impossible to weaponize True Love.

This. At least to a large degree. I once had a Pure Mortal PC who specialized in weaponized Catches (he had Occultist with a focus on it, even) and we talked about how you weaponize true love and  determined there was basically no way to do it. I mean, I suppose you can theoretically trick them into feeding on someone in love...but that's way more awkward and difficult to arrange than it's worth most of the time, and isn't actually likely to damage them that badly unless you have them tied down or something (and any Catch you have to tie someone down to use is pretty close to useless). None of this would technically reduce the Catch by the rules, I admit, but it's enough to justify the lower price to me, at least.

[vultur]

Sadly, the rules for pricing a Catch don't really line up with the examples in OW in many, if not most, cases.

Note that the knowledge +2 is for:

If almost anyone with an awareness of the supernatural knows about the Catch or could easily find out (like from the Paranet, or Bram Stoker’s Dracula if you’re a Black Court vampire), you get a +2.

(emphasis mine) which really isn't all that narrow.

There's just no way the Black Court catch shouldn't be +4 - garlic alone is "something that anyone could reasonably get access to, but usually doesn’t carry on them" (the rule for a +2), even without all their other weaknesses.

So you have to choose - go with the YS rules and re-price all the Catches from OW, or go with the examples and change the YS rules.

[Deadmanwalking]

Sadly, the rules for pricing a Catch don't really line up with the examples in OW in many, if not most, cases.

Note that the knowledge +2 is for: (emphasis mine) which really isn't all that narrow.

There's just no way the Black Court catch shouldn't be +4 - garlic alone is "something that anyone could reasonably get access to, but usually doesn’t carry on them" (the rule for a +2), even without all their other weaknesses.

So you have to choose - go with the YS rules and re-price all the Catches from OW, or go with the examples and change the YS rules.

Uh...the Black Court are +4 in terms of Catch. They just have Supernatural Toughness [-4] and no other toughness powers, meaning they never get more than a +3 rebate.

[vultur]

Uh...the Black Court are +4 in terms of Catch. They just have Supernatural Toughness [-4] and no other toughness powers, meaning they never get more than a +3 rebate.

Ah, OK... right, they don't have Recovery. for some reason I've forgot that several times. So a Black Court Elder with Mythic Toughness would get +4 back.

But there's still lots of others that are weird....

Cold iron (Fae - canonically +3) is available to everyone (+2) and well known (+2).

Faith/holy and sunlight (RCVs - +2) are available to rare class of people (true faith, wizards using sunlight-in-a-hankie) (+1) and well known (+2).  Arguably sunlight is +2 for availability, but...

Ghost dust (spectres - +0) is available to rare class of people (+1) and discoverable using research (+1)

True Love/Courage/Hope (WCVs - +0) is available to rare class of people (+1). It's probably discoverable using research (+1) as I think the White Council, Venatori Umbrorum etc. would keep files on this stuff.

[Sanctaphrax]

Weaponize-ability is not included in the value of The Catch. It probably should be, but it isn't.

Weaponizing True Love seems easy to me. Once you're in it, just start punching. Or get an appropriately love-filled wedding ring and start punching.

[Tedronai]

Let's not derail yet another thread with a debate on True Love.  Various members of this forum have been over it numerous times in the past, and there is no consensus.
I highly recommend the use of Limitation for representing any Catch in the range of True [emotion], Love included.

[vultur]

Weaponize-ability is not included in the value of The Catch. It probably should be, but it isn't.

Weaponizing True Love seems easy to me. Once you're in it, just start punching. Or get an appropriately love-filled wedding ring and start punching.

Sometimes this works (in TC, Justine can burn Madeline Raith just by touching her with her hair). But that works because Madeline is so Hunger-driven that she feeds automatically upon touching someone.

But Harry's True Love protection doesn't burn Lara until she actually tries to feed on him (in WN), because Lara is more controlled.

[toturi]

On the first day of Christmas, my True Love gave to me...

A brand new RPG...

[Locnil]

Sometimes this works (in TC, Justine can burn Madeline Raith just by touching her with her hair). But that works because Madeline is so Hunger-driven that she feeds automatically upon touching someone.

But Harry's True Love protection doesn't burn Lara until she actually tries to feed on him (in WN), because Lara is more controlled.

Yup. Check the WoJ archive. This, more than anything, is why it's damn near impossible to weaponize it.

[Taran]

This. At least to a large degree. I once had a Pure Mortal PC who specialized in weaponized Catches (he had Occultist with a focus on it, even) and we talked about how you weaponize true love and  determined there was basically no way to do it. I mean, I suppose you can theoretically trick them into feeding on someone in love...but that's way more awkward and difficult to arrange than it's worth most of the time, and isn't actually likely to damage them that badly unless you have them tied down or something (and any Catch you have to tie someone down to use is pretty close to useless). None of this would technically reduce the Catch by the rules, I admit, but it's enough to justify the lower price to me, at least.

I have a slightly different take on catches.  Sometimes the bonus you get for how obscure the knowledge is isn't completely based on the catch itself.

I'll use the True Love or Silk (I just recently used Silk in another thread, because I have a character who has a catch of "flowing silk")

Maybe finding the knowledge that "true love" is their catch is a +1, but finding out the only way to weaponize it is to find a wedding rings from a couple that has been married for 50 years and forge them into the hilt of a sword, would make it closer to +0.

In the Silk example, my GM and I decided that getting silk was pretty common +2, finding out the catch would be around +2 because people could wrap it around clubs and fists and stuff, in a pinch, we decided to put it to +1 and make the method of using the Catch more of a mystery...so to use it on a sword or any weapon effectively, the silk had to be attached to the hilt(for the sword) in advance while saying a small prayer.  So while the silk, itself, wasn't going to be hitting my character, the presense of the silk and its association with the sword allowed the sword to act as a catch.

So the research isn't only WHAT the catch is but HOW to use the catch effectively.

[Magicpockets]

Sometimes this works (in TC, Justine can burn Madeline Raith just by touching her with her hair). But that works because Madeline is so Hunger-driven that she feeds automatically upon touching someone.

But Harry's True Love protection doesn't burn Lara until she actually tries to feed on him (in WN), because Lara is more controlled.

What about Justine's gift for Thomas? He only touches it while wearing gloves, and I doubt it's because of feeding.

[Sanctaphrax]

The Catch is True Love, not True Love while feeding. Even if a punch from someone in Love doesn't burn a WCV, it'll beat their Recovery.

[Deadmanwalking]

The Catch is True Love, not True Love while feeding. Even if a punch from someone in Love doesn't burn a WCV, it'll beat their Recovery.

That doesn't necessarily follow. Many Catches have less than precise language, the love itself needs to be involved for the Catch to come up, IMO, not just the person who's in love. And that involves either feeding, or tokens of love.

[Locnil]

The Catch is True Love, not True Love while feeding. Even if a punch from someone in Love doesn't burn a WCV, it'll beat their Recovery.

Which isn't the way it's presented in the books.

Also, you gotta admit, it would finally answer the question of why is that Catch [+0]?