A Question about Catches and Toughness

[MZFalconer]

Does this look alright for a Demon's Scion?

Inhuman Recovery [-2].
Supernatural Toughness [-4].
The Catch [+5]. The Catch is Holy Items/True Faith
+2 for only protecting against physical impacts.
+2 for being easily found out i.e. from one of any number of films, demons are vulnerable to faith and holy items.
+1 it's not extremely rare, but it's not something anyone could acquire.

Do I understand this correctly?

The Armour (o o) from the toughness will only protect him against physical attacks but the extra four boxes of physical stress capacity can still be used to absorb other attacks.
The Regeneration ability will reduce any consequences not inflicted by holy items or true faith.

Do I understand this correctly?

[UmbraLux]

The Armour (o o) from the toughness will only protect him against physical attacks but the extra four boxes of physical stress capacity can still be used to absorb other attacks.

This isn't quite correct.  The catch applies to everything granted by toughness/recovery powers.  You don't have either for any attack meeting the catch requirements - for those you're no tougher and heal no faster than a normal human. 

[Tedronai]

The Catch [+5].[/i] The Catch is Holy Items/True Faith
+2 for only protecting against physical impacts.

I believe these two lines might be resulting in something you do not intend.

So, just to clarify:

Either your catch protects only against a single source of harm (ie. physical impacts) and all other sources of harm bypass your toughness powers or your toughness powers are bypassed by a single source of harm (ie. holy items, or true faith).  Multiple catches provide only the largest bonus, but any attack that fulfills one of those catches bypasses your toughness powers.

The Catch as I read it would be fulfilled by:
any harm not stemming from a physical impact (heat, light, sound, most magical attacks, etc)
OR: any harm caused by the impact from a holy object
OR: any harm caused by an impact with something infused with True Faith

It would protect against:
physical impacts by non-holy non-true-faith objects or entities


Issues like this can be wholly evaded, though, through the use of the Limitation custom power created on this board (if you can get your GM and group to accept it) which weighs the refresh value of things like Catches on how often the player and GM agree such circumstances with affect the character rather than the hypothetical difficulty another character would have in implementing the Catch

[Deadmanwalking]

Nope, that's wrong. That first +2 would only apply if it only protected against a very specific sub-category like fire or magic, if it protects against everything except a specific sub-category (as this does) you only get the second two (so only +3). And, in the official DFRPG universe, very few things are +2 Catches for knowledge and holy items aren't one of them, so it's a total of only +2 (and shown in OW at several places).

And, as UmbraLux says, the extra stress boxes also do not apply to things where the Catch does.

[MZFalconer]

Surely anyone who's seen a movie featuring a demon (e.g. The Exorcist), or read a book or been to church would atleast consider the possibility that demons would be vulnerable to symbols of faith. I'd say it was fairly ingrained in popular culture. I agree that not just anyone could come by it though.

I'm also not clear why a physical impact is less acceptable than fire for a +2. Is it not simply swapping heat for force?
It's just a more likely to occur than fire. If the story took place on the planet venus rather than earth would fire no longer be acceptable for a +2 because it's more commonplace there?

[Deadmanwalking]

Surely anyone who's seen a movie featuring a demon (e.g. The Exorcist), or read a book or been to church would atleast consider the possibility that demons would be vulnerable to symbols of faith. I'd say it was fairly ingrained in popular culture. I agree that not just anyone could come by it though.

The same could be said of cold iron and the Fae. That one's on wikipedia. And yet, it's only a +3 Catch (+1 from knowledge, +2 from being common as dirt). That +2 from knowledge is really stingily given out in the default universe.

I'm also not clear why a physical impact is less acceptable than fire for a +2. Is it not simply swapping heat for force?
It's just a more likely to occur than fire. If the story took place on the planet venus rather than earth would fire no longer be acceptable for a +2 because it's more commonplace there?

Oh, if it's very specifically only physical impact you're right, it gets the +2...but that's gonna screw you vs. 90% of magic as well as several other things, just FYI. And magic is probably the thing you need extra defenses against most given its power.

[MZFalconer]

I now see about how the physical would be bypassed by any non physical XD not sure how that would rate discovery level...

I see what you mean, although the Sidhe one could be a +4, all the examples I saw only had 4 points of toughness and since the power has to cost atleast -1 it may just not be shown.
I think the Cold Iron should be a +4 because almost anyone with knowledge of the Sidhe would know it, if someone asked you about them it would be one of the first things you said.
The demons and holy/faith thing has to be atleast as common as knowledge of the Black court and Dracula's weaknesses.

[Tarion]

The same could be said of cold iron and the Fae. That one's on wikipedia. And yet, it's only a +3 Catch (+1 from knowledge, +2 from being common as dirt). That +2 from knowledge is really stingily given out in the default universe.

I'd argue there's a pretty big difference.
 
Having to look it up on wikipedia is significantly less well known than being such a significant part of popular culture.  Assuming that you're setting your game in the English-speaking parts of the West, a good amount of knowledge of Christianity (or more specifically, Catholicism, I suppose) should be taken for granted.  It's such a core, underlying part of the culture that it's pretty hard to have a good cultural awareness without picking up things, even if it's just watching the Exorcist, or reading Hellblazer.

That said, I strongly disagree with the Fae only getting +1 for knowledge.  It's explicitly stated in the rulebooks that +1 is for when it "requires
access to specific research material that could be restricted (like a wizard’s library)".  Wikipedia doesn't fit that at all, nor does the Fairy Lore Handbook, by Ashliman, or Faeries, by Froud.  Both books, by the way, mention the weakness to iron, and Amazon could have them delivered within the next 24 hours or so.  Frankly, I don't think it could get much easier for me to find out, short of having it as general cultural knowledge that I'd pick up naturally. 

The idea that they should be getting +4, but it's capping out makes a lot more sense to me.   

[Deadmanwalking]

I'd argue there's a pretty big difference.
 
Having to look it up on wikipedia is significantly less well known than being such a significant part of popular culture.  Assuming that you're setting your game in the English-speaking parts of the West, a good amount of knowledge of Christianity (or more specifically, Catholicism, I suppose) should be taken for granted.  It's such a core, underlying part of the culture that it's pretty hard to have a good cultural awareness without picking up things, even if it's just watching the Exorcist, or reading Hellblazer.

You read (or watch!) Hellboy you know about the Fae, too. Also, fairy tales and similar things. I agree the holy thing's more common...but it's also misleading, at least, IMO. It implies any cross or prayer will work and that's simply not true and a potentially deadly mistake.

That said, I strongly disagree with the Fae only getting +1 for knowledge.  It's explicitly stated in the rulebooks that +1 is for when it "requires
access to specific research material that could be restricted (like a wizard’s library)".  Wikipedia doesn't fit that at all, nor does the Fairy Lore Handbook, by Ashliman, or Faeries, by Froud.  Both books, by the way, mention the weakness to iron, and Amazon could have them delivered within the next 24 hours or so.  Frankly, I don't think it could get much easier for me to find out, short of having it as general cultural knowledge that I'd pick up naturally.

Personally, I might be inclined to agree with you. My general interpretation has always been that Fairies in the Dresdenverse look so many different ways (and not always ways that wikipedia or fairy books would identify as fairies) that you might need an equivalent amount of research to the +1 version to even know it's a Fairie. The same logic would apply to human looking demons.

The idea that they should be getting +4, but it's capping out makes a lot more sense to me.

Check OW p. 46, 50, and 54 for some example Fae with -6 or more of Refresh and still only a +3 Catch. That's just for starters, too. Likewise, check out p. 166, 239, 222, or 182 for demons with more than -4 Refresh of Toughness stuff still counting Holy Stuff as only +2.

[LeviathanZero]

My general interpretation has always been that Fairies in the Dresdenverse look so many different ways (and not always ways that wikipedia or fairy books would identify as fairies) that you might need an equivalent amount of research to the +1 version to even know it's a Fairie.

This is my general thinking with it too. Faeries being vulnerable to Cold Iron is quite well ingrained in at least Western culture, but looking at Dresdenverse faeries it'd be easy to know "Hit Tootoot with an iron bar! He's a pixie!", knowing to hit the weird oversized supernatural Cait Sith with the same thing, not so much.

I think the +2 version of the catch is there for completely utterly blatantly obvious 'even the guy with brain damage knows this' type of things, like "Fire is vulnerable to water".

The other thing to remember, is that while we might consider that Cold Iron, items of Faith etc are very obvious as vulnerabilities, we are roleplayers, therefore we are automatically in the top few percent of people in the world for pop culture references, legends, lore and general well-read-ness. When considering catch-cost you need to factor in the fact that the vast majority of the world is just less clued in than the person considering the question.

[Sanctaphrax]

Personally, I might be inclined to agree with you. My general interpretation has always been that Fairies in the Dresdenverse look so many different ways (and not always ways that wikipedia or fairy books would identify as fairies) that you might need an equivalent amount of research to the +1 version to even know it's a Fairie. The same logic would apply to human looking demons.

Personally I think they just screwed up. See also: True Love.

Given the nature of mythology, there's really nothing that's obvious on sight as what it is. That Black Court Vampire could be a lich, that werewolf could be a wolf-shaped faerie, and so on.

[Tedronai]

I think the +2 version of the catch is there for completely utterly blatantly obvious 'even the guy with brain damage knows this' type of things, like "Fire is vulnerable to water".

That's not how it's phrased in the rules, though, so I don't know where you're getting that interpretation.  A +2 rebate is provided for Catches where anyone meaningfully aware of the supernatural is likely to be aware of your weakness.

[Deadmanwalking]

Personally I think they just screwed up. See also: True Love.

How's that screwed up? Harry knows it, but only because Thomas told him (and pretty much everyone knows their own Catch) and it's extremely hard to get, especially in any useful sense. I mean, you either have it (unlikely) or you don't (and are a bit screwed).

Given the nature of mythology, there's really nothing that's obvious on sight as what it is. That Black Court Vampire could be a lich, that werewolf could be a wolf-shaped faerie, and so on.

Valid point...but I'd argue they only get the +2 when they're the obvious critter type associated with the lore (ie: a werewolf lookin' thing vulnerable to silver). When it's the first thing people would try on 'em.

[Sanctaphrax]

...it's extremely hard to get, especially in any useful sense. I mean, you either have it (unlikely) or you don't (and are a bit screwed).

Sounds like a quote from the description of what +1 Catch is. Here, lemme get a real quote: "If it is bypassed by something only a rare class of people in the world have...you get a +1."

+0 is for something only one or two people have.

(Also it seems sketchy that the weakness of a major type of monster could be that secret...but I'll let that slide.)

Valid point...but I'd argue they only get the +2 when they're the obvious critter type associated with the lore (ie: a werewolf lookin' thing vulnerable to silver). When it's the first thing people would try on 'em.

Most fey and most demons would get +2, then. Demons often look demonic, and faeries often look fey.

The Catch mechanics are a frequent source of weirdness. For those not willing to use Limitation or some other rewrite, I suggest just making up the rebates based on what seems reasonable.

[MZFalconer]

I thought the strength of the catch was based on how difficult the weakness was to discover once you knew what enemy you were facing.
If you don't know what you're researching the only way to discover whether you had the right catch would be trial and error.
If it wasn't the case wouldn't any Sidhe under a disguising glamour have a higher catch due to the added difficulty of discerning it's nature?