Help with ANOTHER player's item: Eldritch Calgary Players STAY OUT

[Theonlyspiral]

Hey there guys. Firstly I want to thank everyone who helped with my last item question. The boards here have been very supportive and an absolutely fantastic resource as me and my players try to find our feet in the FATE system. Now I've got another Item of Power question for people. We're rotating the DMing duties, and when it's my character's turn he's going to be constructing a staff. This is what I've managed to get to so far. I know it's not done but I'd really appreciate everyone's help in developing it. Names in brackets are just placeholders until I decide what hunk of magical Junk got put on their to provide the ability. Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated.

THE VOID STAFF [-3]
Description: An irregularly shaped staff, set with stones and capped with a ruby lens. Created by Ex-Warden Allister Leclair, the staff is an amalgamation of artifacts and magical fragments he has gathered over the past several years.
Musts: You must have an aspect related to your use of this item. You must also have Evocation.
Skills Affected: Endurance, Lore
Effects:
[-0]It Is What It Is:A wooden staff. It serves as a Weapon: 1 in combat.
[-0]Purpose: The Void Staff was created to destroy power magical beings (Outsiders, Denarians, powerful Fae ect.) made manifest in the mortal world.
[-0]Unbreakable: The Void Staff is unbreakable except by the use of a ritual designed to bind it in the service of powerful supernatural beings.
[+2]One Time Discount: It's a 6 and a half foot long staff. Good luck hiding that.
[-1](Sponsor Debt): The wielder of the staff can take a point of sponsor debt as per the normal rules in the Sponsored Magic section of YS in order to spend a fate point once per scene. The compels on this debt are to destroy and combat even helpful supernatural creatures.
[-2]Inhuman Toughness: Carved from the wood of the Tree of Life, the staff provide the wielder beyond human vitality.
[+2]The Catch: Fire? I'm not really sure about this part. I'm open to changing the catch.
[-1]The Seid Stones: 13 stones each containing the essence of one of the spells Odin learned during his Vigil. The Void Staff ignores the normal limit on focus item slots on a single item, but does not provide any additional focus slots. Additionally you may treat your lore as +2 when determining the number of Rote spells available to your character.
[-3](All Creatures are Equal Before God):As the ability in YS. I'll call it something like Magic Bane or some such.

[Locnil]

The ability to take Sponsor debt shouldn't cost anything.

Seid Stones seems odd to me - ignoring focus item slot limitations typically isn't enough of an advantage to make it worthwhile. Extra rotes help somewhat, but it should be noted that their value falls in proportion to the number of rotes you already have.

All Creatures Are Equal Before God: This is probably the most common power ever seen on an IoP. Anyway, I've always calculated it's cost as being [-4], but [-3] is a common enough interpretation. Note that if used alongside Evocation, may be too powerful.

The Catch could be anything, from the description. I have a few ideas, but none that seems like it'd fit or be feasible.

[Theonlyspiral]

In terms of Sponsor Debt, I thought it would cost one, as with Sponsored Magic, You get -1 for each of Evocation and Thaumaturgy, and then have -2 which grants Sponsor Debt and an additional Special Ability. Is it normally costed at 0 with the other ability being a -2?

Do you think Seid stones needs another minor ability? or Could something be done to either the rotes or Focus slot part to make it more viable?

I checked the resource collection when I was costing out the Staff which is where I got the -3 for ACAEBG. Doesn't Soulfire do the same thing and more for 3 refresh and can be freely used with Evocation? When possible I've tried very hard to use preexisting abilities for my benchmark on refresh cost. I know it's common, but the staff is being forged to try and impose order on our city, which is basically in a constant state of low intensity supernatural war.

As for the catch I'm open for basically anything at this point. The staff is an amalgamation of different minor artifacts and items so I have no problem believing the fields would interact in an unpredictable manner.

[Locnil]

Sponsored Magic gives Channeling and Ritual, which alone would be enough to justify it's usual cost, then tacks on a few minor benefits.

Sponsored Magic is somewhat suboptimal when you already have Evocation and Thaumaturgy, by design. Could still be useful, though, as an alternate option at high refresh levels.

To be honest, Seid Stones is probably fine as it is. It's just that it feels rather... well, weak. But it's fine as it is. I might make it so that it gives a free focus item slot as well, but that's more to do with my preferences than anything.

The Resource Collection isn't canon... and I did say [-3] was a common intepretation. But anyway, if you want my opinion, I cost the Swords of the Cross like this: [-4] for ACAEBG, [-1] for Divine Purpose, and everything else (yes, even holy) is free. After all, being holy is more of a side effect than anything inherent to the swords.

Also, Soulfire doesn't quite do the same thing. It's Channeling + Thaumaturgy for a total of 5 refresh, same as Sponsored Magic. It's extra benefit doesn't fulfill Catches - it reduces all toughness levels by one - so it's mathematically less than the ability to fulfill the Catch, with the exception of Inhumanly Tough creatures. It is slightly more cost-effective than ACAEBG though, in both sense.

And if you're open to having the Catch be anything, I suggest whatever makes it more hilarious for your group. You can't go wrong with the Rule of Funny.

[Deadmanwalking]

I can see both sides of the argument for Sponsor Debt, so go with whatever makes your various GMs happiest.

Personally, I think the ACaEBG ability is -4 as well (though True Strike is clearly the other -1, Divine Purpose does absolutely nothing good for you mechanically), and I'd personally say that applying it to Evocation is enough of an additional power-up that I might raise it's cost even higher.

A Catch can never drop a Toughness power's cost to nothing, so Fire's only a +1 Catch as applied to Inhuman Toughness.

The Seid Stones is a little weird...do you forget two Rotes when you don't have it? Must those Rotes require it as a Focus? I assume it can't break the 'maximum of a +Lore bonus to one thing' Focus Item limit, but some clarification on that point would be nice.

It might be simpler and easier (as well as less troublesome mechanically) to just have the Staff provide Soulfire (with a different, darker, agenda), Toughness, and Seid Stones. That'd keep the cost at -3, have most of the effects you want without question and be undisputably mechanically sound (okay, maybe with a few modifications to seid stones).

[Theonlyspiral]

I think you have a point about just using the mechanics of Soulfire as opposed to trying to adapt ACaEBG. It was just the best example of the mechanic I could find. My one cocern there is I thought that Soulfire had a higher refresh due to the fact that it had a hypothetically softer Sponsor Agenda? If the Agenda of the staff is violent enough would it rate a reduction to -2?

Would Running Water Apply a -1 Catch? I've been thinking that it would likely ground out all the different auras and such competing within the staff without being so generic.

The Fluff Idea with the Seid stones was to be a gift to the character in return for an unspecified job owed to Monoc securities (Which is a major player in our city). The idea is that there is no limit on the number of focus slots you can use the staff for. When I was designing it I figured it would ignore the lore cap as well. Then I figured that by itself it doesn't really add that much to a character so I tried to find a minor benefit that also really wasn't worth anything by itself. The Rote Spells were just Idea number one.

[Deadmanwalking]

I think you have a point about just using the mechanics of Soulfire as opposed to trying to adapt ACaEBG. It was just the best example of the mechanic I could find. My one cocern there is I thought that Soulfire had a higher refresh due to the fact that it had a hypothetically softer Sponsor Agenda? If the Agenda of the staff is violent enough would it rate a reduction to -2?

I've always pegged the increased cost as due to the blanket ignoring of a level of toughness. Indeed, so does the Soulfire Description, with no mention made of the softer agenda under cost.

Would Running Water Apply a -1 Catch? I've been thinking that it would likely ground out all the different auras and such competing within the staff without being so generic.

Sure, at least +1.

The Fluff Idea with the Seid stones was to be a gift to the character in return for an unspecified job owed to Monoc securities (Which is a major player in our city). The idea is that there is no limit on the number of focus slots you can use the staff for. When I was designing it I figured it would ignore the lore cap as well. Then I figured that by itself it doesn't really add that much to a character so I tried to find a minor benefit that also really wasn't worth anything by itself. The Rote Spells were just Idea number one.

That's...a really weird and potentially broken ability that seems very unlikely to actually be useful. I mean, you could use it and some Refinement to get +8 Offensive Control casually...and that's broken, but unless you do that or something else excessive it's almost certainly not worth it (since you could just have two or three Foci and be better off). Why not have it give a level of Refinement? Either in item Slots or Specialties? That's powerful and thematically on point without getting weird.

[Theonlyspiral]

Ok, so here is the revised version so far:

THE VOID STAFF [-3]
Description: An irregularly shaped staff, set with runed stones, banded with Orichalcum and capped with a ruby lens. Created by Ex-Warden Allister Leclair, the staff is an amalgamation of artifacts and magical fragments he has gathered over the past several years.
Musts: You must have an aspect related to your use of this item. You must also have Evocation.
Skills Affected: Endurance, Lore
Effects:
[-0]It Is What It Is:A wooden staff. It serves as a Weapon: 1 in combat.
[-0]Purpose: The Void Staff was created to destroy power magical beings (Outsiders, Denarians, powerful Fae ect.) made manifest in the mortal world.
[-0]Unbreakable: The Void Staff is unbreakable except by the use of a ritual designed to bind it in the service of powerful supernatural beings.
[+2]One Time Discount: It's a 6 and a half foot long staff. Good luck hiding that.
[-2]Inhuman Toughness: Carved from the wood of the Tree of Life, the staff provide the wielder beyond human vitality.
[+1]The Catch: Running Water. With so multiple magical fields at work, the Staff is very susceptible to grounding out.
[-1]The Seid Stones: Nine stones each containing the essence of one of the spells Odin learned during his Vigil on Yggdrasil. This grants the wielder an additional level of refinement, usable in any way he sees fit.
[-3]Banefire: This acts as the Sponsored magic Soulfire as found in YS.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yep. That version looks useful, cool, and indisputably legal.

[Locnil]

Deadmanwalking: Oops, yes, I actually meant True Strike. Brain fart there.

Personally, I always attributed Soulfire's increased cost to the fact that all thaumaturgy is available to it, and the fact it reduces all toughness. Gentler agenda just makes me roll my eyes. No offence meant.

Seid Stones: Refluffed Refinement works, sure. Though it's a bit dissapointing.

Regarding the new write-up, I would say that you should upgrade it to Supernatural Toughness, since running water would be a [+3] catch IMO. Also, if the staff only requires Evocation and not Thaumaturgy, Banefire would still be a [-4]. It would be [-3] only if you take Thaumaturgy as well - not that you would have a reason to.

[Theonlyspiral]

I completely forgot about the price discount on Soul Fire. I just associate it with the reduced cost, being that it seems like that's how it's used in play most often. I've made those changes that you suggest, as well as updated the Skills that are affected by the staff.

I'd also like the Seid Stones to do something different but I'm not sure what they could do at -1 that's both fluffy and any better than a level of Refinement for a Wizard who no longer has a Warden Sword.

THE VOID STAFF [-3]
Description: An irregularly shaped staff, set with runed stones, banded with Orichalcum and capped with a ruby lens. Created by Ex-Warden Allister Leclair, the staff is an amalgamation of artifacts and magical fragments he has gathered over the past several years.
Musts: You must have an aspect related to your use of this item. You must also have Evocation and Thaumaturgy.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Discipline, Endurance, Lore
Effects:
[-0]It Is What It Is:A wooden staff. It serves as a Weapon: 1 in combat.
[-0]Purpose: The Void Staff was created to destroy power magical beings (Outsiders, Denarians, powerful Fae ect.) made manifest in the mortal world.
[-0]Unbreakable: The Void Staff is unbreakable except by the use of a ritual designed to bind it in the service of powerful supernatural beings.
[+2]One Time Discount: It's a 6 and a half foot long staff. Good luck hiding that.
[-4]Supernatural Toughness: Carved from the wood of the Tree of Life, the staff provide the wielder vitality far beyond that of normal mortals.
[+3]The Catch: Running Water. With so multiple magical fields at work, the Staff is very susceptible to grounding out.
[-1]The Seid Stones: Nine stones each containing the essence of one of the spells Odin learned during his Vigil on Yggdrasil. This grants the wielder an additional level of refinement, usable in any way he sees fit.
[-3]Banefire: This acts as the Sponsored magic Soulfire as found in YS.

[Deadmanwalking]

I might argue that Running Water is only +2 simply because, as defined in the Dresdenverse, running water is hard for someone to actually use sans water magic or a convenient sprinkler system, since a cupful of water isn't gonna do it. I mean, I guess it's well-known...but probably no more so than using holy stuff on demons, and it's really not much easier to use.

[Theonlyspiral]

We have a ton of clued in factions in the City. We kind had a crazy City Creation session. Right now I think with how many opponents know what to do (Including most of the mortal police, 2 groups of faeries, denarians, the church, 3 large aboriginal groups, Monoc, the black court...) in this situation it's well known enough to be +3.

[Deadmanwalking]

Okay, that seems reasonable. 

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think it's good to require Thaumaturgy for an item that gives Soulfire. Soulfire does everything Thaumaturgy does, so requiring Thaumaturgy essentially forces people to spend 2 Refresh on nothing.

That aside, I'll put this in the queue to be added to the list next update. Unless you object, of course.