Comments thread for "The Laws of Magic: Part 4 of 8"

[iago]

The Third Law of Magic is: Never Invade the Thoughts of Another.

http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/news/archives/2007/06/the_laws_of_mag_2.php

Discuss!

[mikeryan]

I'm not overly fond of mind reading as presented in most games or fiction, but this Law puts a neat spin on mind-raping and that makes it more interesting. And I have to say that I love this passage from the article:

But if that happens, every effort should be made to throw the book at them—in as entertaining a way as possible. The moment a player decides to "break" a mystery by peeking inside the heads of those involved, the story stops being about that mystery, and starts being instead about that choice and its consequences. Go nuts with it!

That's the kind of thing that made SotC gold, and I have high hopes for Dresden.

Other comments and questions:

1) Seems a soul gaze would reveal one or more Aspects. What might be a difficult to implement in other systems already has solid mechanics behind it with Fate. Nice.

2) One implementation of mind-reading that I really liked comes from Terry Pratchett. A god says that you can't read a mind because a mind isn't a book that can be read. But you can discern the shape of a mind and determine what kind of person someone is. That seems like a perfect opportunity for an Empathy stunt in SotC or a supernatural ability or spell in Dresden. In game terms, you wouldn't be able to pick out someones network password, but you could reveal one or more Aspects. So if you did try a spell like this, does anyone think it would be a violation of the Third Law, or would it get a pass because it is essentially a mini-soulgaze?

3) Harry tells us that there is no such thing as an expert in defense against mental magic. No one is allowed to practice it (although he didn't know about the Blackstaff at that point), so there is no way to practice defense. I think it would be cool if a cabal of younger wizards began experimenting with this type of magic, just so they can hone their defenses against black magicians (of course).

[13x13]

The comment about finding out nothing after invading someone's mind makes me laugh.  I can just imagine me changing the story on the fly to make the mind read, innocent. Changing the murderer, and adding the extra dynamic of having the mindreader having to explain himself to a warden.

[hollow49]

3) Harry tells us that there is no such thing as an expert in defense against mental magic. No one is allowed to practice it (although he didn't know about the Blackstaff at that point), so there is no way to practice defense.

Doubtless there is already a rule covering this, but I feel the need to speculate. Perhaps the skill used for defence in this kind of psychic struggle cannot be learnt beyond a certain level without experience, or if it uses a more common skill, is limited to a maximum value for this purpose? Harry's encounter with Corpsetaker indicates that he has some training, which might well have stood up to a complete novice. Presumably if a wizard gets attacked mentally enough he could learn by experience, and Harry probably now has at least 1 more level than the normal value thanks to the events of Dead Beat and the teachings of Lasciel...

[iago]

I haven't planned a rule for that *yet*.  Though I could see that being fine grounds for a compel on, say, a White Council Wizard aspect -- "Is the Council still teaching you that grade-school stuff for mental defense?  Tch."

[JonnyNapalm]

So... as an avid gamer and BIG fan of everything Jim Butcher I was compelled to look into this thread and on the sites of the RPG... And something came to mind.

Can you Violate someone's mind if they ask you in?  At least as the laws put it?  I know that SOME Wardens would say that entering anothers mind, willing or no, puts you on that path... but consider if someone has a habit or something that they know is hurting/killing them and ASKS the wizard for help. 

Would it be a violation if they knew this was something you were capable of and asked for your assistance?  I know intent is a major thing and from the description of certain things in Dead Beat it would still have major problems. 

(click to show/hide)

On the other hand, Molly did force her will on 2 people when she did it

... instead of asking to be allowed to help... And there is other background to suggest other reasons for the "wounds" to look as they did.

And if the invitation thing applies... it would suggest the possibility of a means of training mental defenses.  Seeing as critters from the Nevernever can and will violate ones mind... and pushing/fighting them till they're out seems to be the primary means of defense.

Take the previous example of a cabal of younger wizards learning the tricks of the trade hearing about someone who's will was co-opted til a warden came to deal with the warlock/sorcerer.  Taking a look at the laws they say "Hey... if we practice with each other on pushing or keeping each other out for a very specific purpose... we might be able to develop techniques to help against that."  And, if we say they all agree to the terms they set out and stick by them for the purpose of this training they've come up with...
One could ARGUE that they held up the terms of the law while practicing a defense against it.   Granted... discovery that they'd done so would likely get them killed by the old guard Wardens... but most kids are convinced of their immortality anyway.

Just some thoughts to ponder and argue. 

[mikeryan]

The voluntarily aspect is interesting. I could see other advantages to it as well. If a wizard made a living as a head shrinker, there might be some clients who would be willing to submit to a mind-probe so that the witch-doctor could find something to help them.

There's witness applications too. I see something and you don't. I try to describe it to you, but there might be a detail that I gloss over because I don't recognize the significance of it. If you read my mind, you might catch some of those details.

Or a wizard is in a coma after some kind of attack. A mind probe might tell you what attacked him and why.

Another thought:

WN spoiler:

(click to show/hide)

What about Harry's comm-link with Elaine? That had some elements that would apply to this Law, but it sure seemed to be handy.

[iago]

(click to show/hide)

What about Harry's comm-link with Elaine? That had some elements that would apply to this Law, but it sure seemed to be handy.

But that's not reading someone's mind; that's sending a message.  No invasion is occurring here.

[hollow49]

I have my suspicions that a voluntary invasion of ones mind is going to be banned as well, given that it's never been seen. The transmission of thought, however, should probably be permitted, though might require fairly stringent conditions -  WN spoiler.

(click to show/hide)

When Harry sent a mental message to Elaine, he needed to use her True Name.

Transmitting a thought or mental impression to another, as long as the other is not obliged to pick it up, is not going to violate the law, and might well be helpful in establishing details that can't easily be described. I suspect that it may leave the door open for mental attacks from the recipient though...

[mikeryan]

But that's not reading someone's mind; that's sending a message.  No invasion is occurring here.

My bad. I had thought he had picked up something that she hadn't actively transmitted to him.

In any event, I think transmissions can be every bit as invasive as reading. I find spam email invasive enough. But this has added problems. Without breaking that other law (about taking away someones will), you could drive them insane. Send them messages they think are from God. Or make them think that their dog is telling them to go out and kill people. The possibilities are endless.

Someone mentioned that knowing a True Name is required for a transmission (again going by WN). But that isn't really a defense for non-Wizards. Regular folk aren't that protective of their Names. You could pick up a bunch without really trying.

[iago]

Someone mentioned that knowing a True Name is required for a transmission (again going by WN). But that isn't really a defense for non-Wizards. Regular folk aren't that protective of their Names. You could pick up a bunch without really trying.

I don't know about the "without really trying".  Learning how someone *else* says a name, precisely, isn't exactly easy.  The one guy we've seen do it with casual ease in the books was Mister Ferro -- Ferrovax, one of the very few True Dragons in the world.  And he did it with a fragment.  Getting someone's *full* name, spoken from their lips, pronounced accurately, with every nuance correct -- that, to me, isn't something any human could pick up "without really trying".  IMO.

[hollow49]

I don't know about the "without really trying".  Learning how someone *else* says a name, precisely, isn't exactly easy.  The one guy we've seen do it with casual ease in the books was Mister Ferro -- Ferrovax, one of the very few True Dragons in the world.  And he did it with a fragment.  Getting someone's *full* name, spoken from their lips, pronounced accurately, with every nuance correct -- that, to me, isn't something any human could pick up "without really trying".  IMO.

Mind you, a trained wizard probably learns to memorize any name he hears, and if someone without any middle names introduces themselves formally - they've given him the key to their psyche  - as it stands now. (Of course, mortals having free will, their true names do gradually change along with their nature - the Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden of WN is not the same person as the young boy adopted by Justin DuMorne, and his pronunciation of his Name has changed subtly as well. Harry has gone into detail about this before, but in WN shows how he can make adjustments to the name to allow for such changes to get it to work. Whether he could do the same without some idea as to what the other had experienced over the years since the Name was given, is another matter.)

Out of interest, how common is it now for people to have no middle name or (in some parts of the world) go by both first names, and so be unprotected? At work we use our initials for logins, but about 1 in 10 of us is stuck with X or Q as a dummy middle initial instead. Is this a modern trend, and is it more or less common in the US than here in the UK? (OTOH, my father's side of the family runs to multiple middle names - my dad has 5 names, my uncle 4 and my new nephew has 4 as well.)

[mikeryan]

I don't know about the "without really trying".  Learning how someone *else* says a name, precisely, isn't exactly easy.  The one guy we've seen do it with casual ease in the books was Mister Ferro -- Ferrovax, one of the very few True Dragons in the world.  And he did it with a fragment.  Getting someone's *full* name, spoken from their lips, pronounced accurately, with every nuance correct -- that, to me, isn't something any human could pick up "without really trying".  IMO.

I think this is another one of those matters of interpretation things again. I'm focussed on the first chapter of Storm Front. Monica doesn't want to give Harry her name because she's afraid he can use it against her. He admits she has a point. So it can't be too terribly hard to pick up names.

If someone isn't on guard against wizards (because that's just make believe), they'll give up their name without thinking. Hang out in a church or other semi-formal gathering and introduce yourself formally ("Hi, I'm Mike Ryan.") and people will respond in kind. And if you're paranoid about giving up your own name, use an alias ("My name is Guy Incognito") on the assumption that your victims won't be.

If you want to go to silly extremes, an evil wizard could pose as a census taker or hang out in a court of law, listening to people state their full names for the record.

The question is how much damage can an evil wizard do to someone without all their middle names? I figure if it's a wizard like Harry, not too much. But against John Q. Public who doesn't even believe in all that mumbo jumbo, probably a heck of a lot.

[NevynK]

(click to show/hide)

When Harry sent a mental message to Elaine, he needed to use her True Name.

No he used her true name to snap her outta the funk she was in cause

(click to show/hide)

of the white court vamp that was trying to kill her

the rest of the time they simply willed and viola insta comlink short range though.

I don't know about the "without really trying".  Learning how someone *else* says a name, precisely, isn't exactly easy.  The one guy we've seen do it with casual ease in the books was Mister Ferro -- Ferrovax, one of the very few True Dragons in the world.  And he did it with a fragment.  Getting someone's *full* name, spoken from their lips, pronounced accurately, with every nuance correct -- that, to me, isn't something any human could pick up "without really trying".  IMO.

Hmm maybe its just cause I'm polylingual but names are pretty easy,say it wrong on purpose a couple of times and you'll have more than enough to go on as people tend to repeat their name tow to three times before they say yeah sure thats it.The only names I have trouble pronouncing are middle eastern names. Too many syllables too close together. But anyways a even a linguistically challenged human could gather plenty of true names even just with a mini recorder and hand them off to a wizard.

[mikeryan]

No he used her true name to snap her outta the funk she was in cause


the rest of the time they simply willed and viola insta comlink short range though.

Good point.

Thinking about this some more, I figure it can be spun in one of two ways.

WN Spoilers

(click to show/hide)

1. It seemed to me that Harry didn't cast a spell to create the link when he wanted to talk to Elaine. He just called on a pre-existing link. Perhaps they both needed to be actively participating in order to create such a link in the first place. Once the link was built, either could initiate contact. Since they are each voluntarily giving the other the key to their brain, it could be argued that it is not an "invasion". This line of reasoning could lead to comm-links between PCs, as well as using volunteers to practice mental defense (as discussed earlier in the thread).

Alternatively,

2. The link was created when Harry and Elaine were studying under Justin. It is entirely possible that he suggested the idea of the link (either subtly or overtly), maybe even helping out in construction, in order to draw them into working with Black Magic.

It really boils down to deciding if we (as individual GMs) think it is more fun to allow telepathic communication between PCs, or to discourage such communication.